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Should a competitor be forced to assist another competitor?

Poll Results: Should a competitor be forced to assist another competitor?

 
  • 6% (2)
    Yes
  • 93% (31)
    No
33 Total Votes  
post #1 of 84
Thread Starter 

Often the results of a tournament are greatly affected by timing.  If one has an early starting time, one may benefit from calm winds that pick-up in intensity as the day proceeds.  No one expects the early tee times to race around the course so that the following groups can play before the winds increase.  "Luck of the draw" means sometimes your starting time is a plus and other times it is a minus.

 

Now we jump forward to the closing hole of the PGA.  Phil Mickelson trails Rory by 2 shots.  Arguably, it is going to be harder for Rory to play well in total darkness.  Is it right to expect Phil, who still has a chance of catching Rory, to stand aside and help Rory play the hole in better light?  Yes, Rory could have said it was too dark and he could come back in the morning.  That was his choice.  It should have been Phil's choice whether to stand aside and allow Rory to "hit up" twice.  My impression was Phil and Rick were told the trailing group was going to "hit up" and it was not their choice.

 

Allowing a competitor to have a better chance to finish is a sporting gesture.  Being forced to allow one's competitor to have a better chance is wrong. 

 

What does everyone else think?

post #2 of 84
I thought it was stupid of Rory. I felt that he was rushed. He hit two bad shots in a row on 18. The drive that almost went in the water almost cost him a tie.
post #3 of 84

Forced? I'm going to give it some thought but probably vote "no" in the poll.

 

Is it the right thing to do? The sporting thing to do? To look for a player's ball, to let them hit up if they're running out of daylight, etc.? Absolutely.

 

Besides, Phil probably didn't want to have to stick around until tomorrow morning either. Letting them hit up cost Phil nothing, except delaying for a minute walking up the fairway.

 

Let's not turn into a bunch of pricks in the name of "win at all costs" please. Golf is one of the few honest sports left; maybe the only one.

post #4 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by bkuehn1952 View Post
 

Often the results of a tournament are greatly affected by timing.  If one has an early starting time, one may benefit from calm winds that pick-up in intensity as the day proceeds.  No one expects the early tee times to race around the course so that the following groups can play before the winds increase.  "Luck of the draw" means sometimes your starting time is a plus and other times it is a minus.

 

Now we jump forward to the closing hole of the PGA.  Phil Mickelson trails Rory by 2 shots.  Arguably, it is going to be harder for Rory to play well in total darkness.  Is it right to expect Phil, who still has a chance of catching Rory, to stand aside and help Rory play the hole in better light?  Yes, Rory could have said it was too dark and he could come back in the morning.  That was his choice.  It should have been Phil's choice whether to stand aside and allow Rory to "hit up" twice.  My impression was Phil and Rick were told the trailing group was going to "hit up" and it was not their choice.

 

Allowing a competitor to have a better chance to finish is a sporting gesture.  Being forced to allow one's competitor to have a better chance is wrong. 

 

What does everyone else think?

 

yea, I thought that whole sequence was a little strange. As a competitor, I would have done everything within the rules to make Rory's experience as difficult as possible... "gamesmanship" if you will. I was really puzzled that the final hole played out the way it did. 

post #5 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by divot dave View Post
 

As a competitor, I would have done everything within the rules to make Rory's experience as difficult as possible... "gamesmanship" if you will.

 

Really?

 

So you'd be content to be known as "that huge *******" among fans and your fellow PGA Tour players if it might help you eke out another victory or two along your career?

 

This is not the game of golf that I love so much.

post #6 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post
 

Forced? I'm going to give it some thought but probably vote "no" in the poll.

 

Is it the right thing to do? The sporting thing to do? To look for a player's ball, to let them hit up if they're running out of daylight, etc.? Absolutely.

 

Besides, Phil probably didn't want to have to stick around until tomorrow morning either. Letting them hit up cost Phil nothing, except delaying for a minute walking up the fairway.

 

Let's not turn into a bunch of pricks in the name of "win at all costs" please. Golf is one of the few honest sports left; maybe the only one.

 

I don't think its about turning into a bunch of pricks, although I see your point. For me, its the fact that at the end of the day, golf is still a competition sport, and this wasn't some charity event, this was a major. Given how close the match was going into the final hole, in my opinion, the situation merits more of a "win at all costs" mentality. Not a Coach Jason Kidd - intentionally spill water on the court to stall time - win at all costs... but more of a less courteous, win at all costs. If u catch my drift. 

post #7 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by divot dave View Post
 

I don't think its about turning into a bunch of pricks, although I see your point. For me, its the fact that at the end of the day, golf is still a competition sport, and this wasn't some charity event, this was a major.

 

All the more reason to not be a dick and to show some class and sportsmanship.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by divot dave View Post
 

Given how close the match was going into the final hole, in my opinion, the situation merits more of a "win at all costs" mentality.

 

I'm going to stop responding to you now. We will not agree on this, and we will not convince each other to change our minds.

post #8 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post

Really?

So you'd be content to be known as "that huge *******" among fans and your fellow PGA Tour players if it might help you eke out another victory or two along your career?

This is not the game of golf that I love so much.
I agree with you and honestly, wouldn't have expected much different from Phil.

But there's a poster here with a handle that asks a very interesting question: what would Tiger do? Dunno for sure but not unreasonable to think he would not have been as gracious.
post #9 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post
 

 

Really?

 

So you'd be content to be known as "that huge *******" among fans and your fellow PGA Tour players if it might help you eke out another victory or two along your career?

 

 

If leveraging the rules of competition so that it preserves a competitive advantage which I obtained by playing fairly and observing the rules, makes me out to be a "huge ********" in your eyes, then you and I simply have a different philosophical approach to winning. 

Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post
 

 

Really?

...

 

This is not the game of golf that I love so much.

 

I mean, I can't argue with you here... as much as I like golf, the game means more to you than it does to me. So you are weighing things in a manner that I'm probably not even considering when arriving at an opinion on this topic. You have a much longer history with the game than I, so its kind of like a wine connoisseur trying to convince a 16 year old to appreciate certain nuances that he isn't even aware of yet. 

post #10 of 84
Voted no, but anybody who does what some are suggesting (gamesmanship, making Rory play in the dark) would come out of it as a giant jerk. You think public perception of Bubba turned worse after his long drive contest, that paled in comparison to what would happen after this situation.
post #11 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post
 

Forced? I'm going to give it some thought but probably vote "no" in the poll.

 

Is it the right thing to do? The sporting thing to do? To look for a player's ball, to let them hit up if they're running out of daylight, etc.? Absolutely.

 

Besides, Phil probably didn't want to have to stick around until tomorrow morning either. Letting them hit up cost Phil nothing, except delaying for a minute walking up the fairway.

 

Let's not turn into a bunch of pricks in the name of "win at all costs" please. Golf is one of the few honest sports left; maybe the only one.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Golfingdad View Post

Voted no, but anybody who does what some are suggesting (gamesmanship, making Rory play in the dark) would come out of it as a giant jerk. You think public perception of Bubba turned worse after his long drive contest, that paled in comparison to what would happen after this situation.

 

Agree with both.

 

Sometimes you do what's right, even if it isn't mandated.

post #12 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by divot dave View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post
 

Forced? I'm going to give it some thought but probably vote "no" in the poll.

 

Is it the right thing to do? The sporting thing to do? To look for a player's ball, to let them hit up if they're running out of daylight, etc.? Absolutely.

 

Besides, Phil probably didn't want to have to stick around until tomorrow morning either. Letting them hit up cost Phil nothing, except delaying for a minute walking up the fairway.

 

Let's not turn into a bunch of pricks in the name of "win at all costs" please. Golf is one of the few honest sports left; maybe the only one.

 

I don't think its about turning into a bunch of pricks, although I see your point. For me, its the fact that at the end of the day, golf is still a competition sport, and this wasn't some charity event, this was a major. Given how close the match was going into the final hole, in my opinion, the situation merits more of a "win at all costs" mentality. Not a Coach Jason Kidd - intentionally spill water on the court to stall time - win at all costs... but more of a less courteous, win at all costs. If u catch my drift. 

 

Amazing.  Win at all costs?  Is that what golf means to you?  Your idea of "courteous" and mine are polar opposites.  How can you possibly be courteous while stalling another competitor to put him in a bad situation?  That wouldn't be courtesy, that would be rude and boorish, and unsportsmanlike in the extreme. 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by divot dave View Post
 

I don't think its about turning into a bunch of pricks, although I see your point. For me, its the fact that at the end of the day, golf is still a competition sport, and this wasn't some charity event, this was a major.

 

All the more reason to not be a dick and to show some class and sportsmanship.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by divot dave View Post
 

Given how close the match was going into the final hole, in my opinion, the situation merits more of a "win at all costs" mentality.

 

I'm going to stop responding to you now. We will not agree on this, and we will not convince each other to change our minds.

 

I'm with Erik 110% on this.  Golf is about applauding your fellow competitor when he sinks a putt to beat you.  It's damn sure not about some twisted idea of gamesmanship that deliberately puts his opponent at a disadvantage.  It's a bush league tactic, and using it as DD suggests would be contrary to the history and traditions of the game of golf.

post #13 of 84
It was the right thing to do. I think if anyone had the time to really think about the decision, they'd be hard-pressed to say otherwise.

We all want to win, but also to do so relatively fairly and with class.
post #14 of 84

Golf is a game to me were the rules are there, not to be leveraged against your opponent, but to create an equal playing field.

 

At the end of the day, golf is a game were Jack quieted the crowd to let Tom Watson have the same courtesy of a quiet crowd, the same conditions he had for his putt, for his winning putt in the British Open, Its a game were players call penalties on themselves when no one else saw that the ball moved. Golf has always been a game of good sportsmanship, and self officiating. Its a game that holds its players to a higher standard than any other sport. 

post #15 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post

 

I'm going to stop responding to you now. We will not agree on this, and we will not convince each other to change our minds.

 

All due respect - perhaps you should stop responding if what you're trying to do is get me to change my mind... I'm certainly not trying to get you to change yours. I was under the impression that this was a discussion, where there is room for civil minds to disagree and still positively contribute to the topic. 

 
 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Golfingdad View Post

Voted no, but anybody who does what some are suggesting (gamesmanship, making Rory play in the dark) would come out of it as a giant jerk. You think public perception of Bubba turned worse after his long drive contest, that paled in comparison to what would happen after this situation.

 

yeah, if it played out like you describe, it definitely would look bad. I'm not sure exactly how it all went down, but it appeared as though Ricky had already agreed to let them play thru, Phil was well on his way to toward his 2nd shot when he was run down by an official. That indicates to me that Phil had no issues with letting Rory play in the dark if he wanted to. In the situation, Phil did the right thing in agreeing (albeit begrudgingly) to letting them play as a 4 some. But the question on the floor is should a competitor be forced... which for reasons previously stated, I vote no. I honestly think Phil would vote no too. 

post #16 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by saevel25 View Post
 

Golf is a game to me were the rules are there, not to be leveraged against your opponent, but to create an equal playing field.

 

At the end of the day, golf is a game were Jack quieted the crowd to let Tom Watson have the same courtesy of a quiet crowd, the same conditions he had for his putt, for his winning putt in the British Open, Its a game were players call penalties on themselves when no one else saw that the ball moved. Golf has always been a game of good sportsmanship, and self officiating. Its a game that holds its players to a higher standard than any other sport. 

 

Thats a good point... see, these are nuances that I'm just not familiar with. Haven't been around the sport long enough. No need to villlainize me because my philosophy of competition was forged and fermented in the context of a different sport(s) - or another way of saying it - hasn't been influenced by the game of golf ... yet.

post #17 of 84
Ummmm-You quoted him saying he was not going to respond more-he has not-and you tell him to stop responding? OKay man. He was disagreeing with you AS ALMOST ALL PEOPLE WILL I think. THe poll question is poorly worded with the word 'force' in there.-If it said 'should' the results would be quite different.
Quote:
Originally Posted by divot dave View Post

All due respect - perhaps you should stop responding if what you're trying to do is get me to change my mind... I'm certainly not trying to get you to change yours. I was under the impression that this was a discussion, where there is room for civil minds to disagree and still positively contribute to the topic.

BTW your reputation is about to tank and not for that but for your win at all costs approach.-Youre now gonna be 'that guy'. The jerk.-The 'gamesmanship win at all costs' jerk.

Please change your mind for your sake and those three beautiful children in your picture.
post #18 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by divot dave View Post

If leveraging the rules of competition so that it preserves a competitive advantage which I obtained by playing fairly and observing the rules, makes me out to be a "huge ********" in your eyes, then you and I simply have a different philosophical approach to winning. 


And this why we have so many rules and rules with in the rules ... Hopefully we do not add a rule to accommodate this situation ...

I would have let him play up ... What Ricky and Phil did was the right thing ...
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