A Question for the 200-220 Yard Drivers, About Low Scores

[Mr Puddle]

On 5/4/2019 at 3:57 PM, YoungTad said:

Hey guys. 

 

Im just wondering, for us amateurs who can’t hit distance, how do you handle 450 yard par 4’s?

say I hit a good 210 driver, followed by my 4 iron which is 180, that still leaves me 2 shots for par, but still 60 yards out from the pin. At best that’s 3 shots for me.

do you guys just practice your short game too help improve on this? 

My 2 clubs for close range is Pitcher and a 56, maybe I should consider more wedges for more control in short shots?

One of the best players I play with, and plays in single figures, uses nothing bigger than a 5 wood. What he loses in distance he gains in accuracy, and a great short game. 

[Lihu]

19 hours ago, iacas said:

They're stealing from us, the sellers on Amazon (unless you bought a used copy from an individual).

🥺 WTF??!?! Are you pressing charges against them? If not, you should...

[Paul OBrien]

I would definitely add a wedge (or 2). I do carry four in my bag. And working more short game than full swing never hurt any ones's game. In fact, I cannot recall any article/advice regarding practicing that DIDN'T emphasize working MUCH more short game and putting than full swing. I play in a senior league with guys in their 70s. Many of them do not reach in regulation - but, they're scoring in the low 80s because their short game is that on point. 

That being said, I LOVE all the comments recommending moving to a more forward tee box. I wish every weekend golfer would!! I would bet that 85% of the slow groups I've been stuck behind are playing for the wrong tee boxes. Age, distance, and handicap should be more of a determinant of the correct tee box than pride! 

[Lihu]

13 minutes ago, Paul OBrien said:

That being said, I LOVE all the comments recommending moving to a more forward tee box. I wish every weekend golfer would!! I would bet that 85% of the slow groups I've been stuck behind are playing for the wrong tee boxes. Age, distance, and handicap should be more of a determinant of the correct tee box than pride! 

I think just distance should be the main factor with handicap coming in at a distant second place only as a testament to someone’s accuracy? Age either causes distance loss or not, so I would really factor that in with distance. 😁

Even then, they don’t have to be that accurate, just enough to make reasonable second shots...

[ncates00]

1 hour ago, Paul OBrien said:

I would definitely add a wedge (or 2). I do carry four in my bag. And working more short game than full swing never hurt any ones's game. In fact, I cannot recall any article/advice regarding practicing that DIDN'T emphasize working MUCH more short game and putting than full swing. I play in a senior league with guys in their 70s. Many of them do not reach in regulation - but, they're scoring in the low 80s because their short game is that on point. 

That being said, I LOVE all the comments recommending moving to a more forward tee box. I wish every weekend golfer would!! I would bet that 85% of the slow groups I've been stuck behind are playing for the wrong tee boxes. Age, distance, and handicap should be more of a determinant of the correct tee box than pride! 

 

46 minutes ago, Lihu said:

I think just distance should be the main factor with handicap coming in at a distant second place only as a testament to someone’s accuracy? Age either causes distance loss or not, so I would really factor that in with distance. 😁

Even then, they don’t have to be that accurate, just enough to make reasonable second shots...

Chambers Bay uses distance for their tee boxes.  I can't remember the exact distances, but it was something like tees were for 280+, 250-279, 220-249, and 190-219.  That really makes sense to me.  I played it right before the 2015 US Open.  Beautiful and amazing course--shame what happened to it shortly afterward.

[Paul OBrien]

On 5/5/2019 at 1:26 PM, benharris said:

Quick question to those who would play a par four like this as if it were a par five.

Why not just move to a more forward set of tees? Or play a hybrid tee setup?

I do not understand the mindset of stepping up to a par 4 and just accepting that bogey is your best realistic score. It just seems like a stressful way to play golf. I know that if I was was playing some monster of a course where I was playing long irons/hybrids/woods into all the greens after hitting good drives that I would really not be having fun.

I am kinda working under the assumption that with this par 4 that is treated as a par 5, that there are also holes where you can make some hay. If the entire course is like this, I would play up. But if it's this one ridiculous hole, score where I can and take my medicine here sounds kinda like golf. 

[Lihu]

59 minutes ago, Paul OBrien said:

I am kinda working under the assumption that with this par 4 that is treated as a par 5, that there are also holes where you can make some hay. If the entire course is like this, I would play up. But if it's this one ridiculous hole, score where I can and take my medicine here sounds kinda like golf. 

It’s pretty rare to have the average hole be 320 yards only to have a monster one 130 yards longer though.

Of course, most men won’t play from that short a distance even if they don’t drive long enough to play the tees they do.

[NJpatbee]

WHITE	520	325	310	155	370	375	145	345	500	3045	495	365	195	370	180	375	495	435	375	3285	6330
GOLD	495	315	295	150	350	360	130	325	475	2895	480	350	180	355	165	360	475	415	355	3135	6030

 

Listed above are the actual tee boxes and associated yardages on my current home course.  I play from the white tees and i have highlighted in bold the 520 yard par 5 that I have trouble reaching and the 435 yard par 4 that I just cannot reach.  I have the ability to reach 16 of the 18 holes but being a 16 handicap of course I do not always reach and have a relatively low GIR,  But if I put a couple of good swings (for me) I can reach most of the holes.  I have also shown the gold senior tees which i have played but they did not make much of a difference in my score.  That being said, I do get a lot of use out of my long hybrids on approach shots.  On a good day I will have about 4-5 GIR from either tee.  Challenging but fun.

Listed below are the new "green tees" which I will eventually move up to.

GREEN

485

290

265

135

310

335

120

315

415

2670

465

300

170

310

155

305

465

345

300

2815

5485

[DrvFrShow]

On 5/7/2019 at 2:52 PM, iacas said:

It's not optimal for the general golfer, that's all. 

 

 

Well, honestly, I have the one lengths now, and I'm not thinking about confidence with different clubs anymore. They're all the same. Depending upon lie, I'd pop either the 24H or the 6i and let it roll out to about 60 yds from the hole and hit a the S wedge up. Take my lumps from there. I was thinking about someone who was a high handicapper who happened to hit a decent drive - there are people like that who can get off the tee but are crap on the fairway. But you're right, for a middling bogey golfer, no, it wasn't ideal. 

[Shindig]

7 hours ago, Paul OBrien said:

And working more short game than full swing never hurt any ones's game. In fact, I cannot recall any article/advice regarding practicing that DIDN'T emphasize working MUCH more short game and putting than full swing.

Um... well, working on short game does more for your score than drinking another beer does, but it's not anywhere near as important as full swing practice unless you are incompetent at chipping and pitching.   Those articles are generally preaching at people who never practice short game or putting, except maybe to slap a few balls haphazardly at a hole a few minutes before teeing off. 

For reference, only a little more than a third of your practice time should be spent on non-full-swing aspects of the game, unless something in your game is waaaay off (e.g., incompetent at chipping). 

See this for more details, it will change the way you practice.

 

[tehuti]

5 hours ago, DrvFrShow said:

Well, honestly, I have the one lengths now, and I'm not thinking about confidence with different clubs anymore. They're all the same. Depending upon lie, I'd pop either the 24H or the 6i and let it roll out to about 60 yds from the hole and hit a the S wedge up. Take my lumps from there. I was thinking about someone who was a high handicapper who happened to hit a decent drive - there are people like that who can get off the tee but are crap on the fairway. But you're right, for a middling bogey golfer, no, it wasn't ideal. 

I am one of the guys who has less trouble with my tee shot but tends to be a disaster between there and the green.

[gjunkie57]

I have never seen a par 4 of 450 yds. If I did I would play as a 5. Drive 220, FM 160, then wedge on from 70.

 

[Lihu]

16 hours ago, NJpatbee said:

WHITE	520	325	310	155	370	375	145	345	500	3045	495	365	195	370	180	375	495	435	375	3285	6330
GOLD	495	315	295	150	350	360	130	325	475	2895	480	350	180	355	165	360	475	415	355	3135	6030

 

Listed above are the actual tee boxes and associated yardages on my current home course.  I play from the white tees and i have highlighted in bold the 520 yard par 5 that I have trouble reaching and the 435 yard par 4 that I just cannot reach.  I have the ability to reach 16 of the 18 holes but being a 16 handicap of course I do not always reach and have a relatively low GIR,  But if I put a couple of good swings (for me) I can reach most of the holes.  I have also shown the gold senior tees which i have played but they did not make much of a difference in my score.  That being said, I do get a lot of use out of my long hybrids on approach shots.  On a good day I will have about 4-5 GIR from either tee.  Challenging but fun.

Listed below are the new "green tees" which I will eventually move up to.

GREEN

485

290

265

135

310

335

120

315

415

2670

465

300

170

310

155

305

465

345

300

2815

5485

Even if you move to the gold tees, I can guarantee that you’ll have more fun. 😊

Green is a great idea! Honestly, unless you shoot in the 70s is doesn’t make a lot of sense to play the white tees...

[onthehunt526]

18 minutes ago, Lihu said:

Even if you move to the gold tees, I can guarantee that you’ll have more fun. 😊

Green is a great idea! Honestly, unless you shoot in the 70s is doesn’t make a lot of sense to play the white tees...

I think moving up if the course has an extra set of tees to allow for this is a great idea. 

I believe players who drive it from 200-220 should be playing from tees that are 5,700-5,900 yards.

Even the USGA has a statement about "bogey golfers" that states something like they can reach a 370-yard hole with 2 shots.

If your average distances are as stated above. If you have a 450-yard par-4 from the tees you play and it's an outlier, moving up may not be possible, however if there are more than one at this length you may want to consider moving up. 

Alina my 5-year-old daughter drives it about 140 yards (carry and roll), She plays from the ladies tees (5500 yards or about 2700 yards on the front nine). And she has trouble with the two par-5s espically #1 (455 yards). If I could move her up I would.

I have stated to Mike (the Superintendent) that the ladies tees are too far back on most holes. I see adult ladies hitting woods into the par-threes and Woods to lay-up on a lot of the par-4s. The city just doesn't want to give him enough money to move up the regular ladies tees. The point of the story is: Alina usually make up for her score on the par-3s and the 2 shorter par-fours. She typically shoots in the low 50s for 9 holes.

[Shindig]

2 hours ago, onthehunt526 said:

I have stated to Mike (the Superintendent) that the ladies tees are too far back on most holes. I see adult ladies hitting woods into the par-threes and Woods to lay-up on a lot of the par-4s. The city just doesn't want to give him enough money to move up the regular ladies tees. The point of the story is: Alina usually make up for her score on the par-3s and the 2 shorter par-fours. She typically shoots in the low 50s for 9 holes.

This is a regular problem at a lot of courses.  The tees for women are, at best, an afterthought.  I'd love it if they could take a typical male bogey golfer, figure out what clubs he's likely to hit on each hole, and set the yardage for the ladies' tees based on a typical woman bogey golfer.   It's kind of absurd that there are holes where I'm hitting driver, 7-iron to the green and my mom hits a good driver, a good 5-wood and has another full swing left.  She's not quite a bogey golfer but I still view it as a sign that her tees are too far back. 

[onthehunt526]

The two charts above will help explain this better than I can.

If you are driving it 214 yards, which I believe is what Trackman data found for average bogey golfers. you should be playing a set of tees that is between 5,500-5,700 yards. Not 6,300-6,500 which some courses middle tees are set up at.\

Who wants to play 450-yard par 4s where it's a drive, a good hybrid or wood, and a 1/2 SW just to reach the green in 3. You'll struggle to make 4. You may take 5, but you are going to make a lot of 6s, 7s, and others. I'm not saying that you'd ever have more than one par-four at 450 yards playing from the white tees...

If your course's championship tees are set where you have a 450 yard par 4. think of what a tour pro would probably hit into that hole. The average length tour pro is going to probably hit Driver, 7-iron. So which set of tees affords you the chance to hit Driver, 7-iron? That is a question you have to ask yourself.

I average around 265 yards off the tee when all is said and done, perhaps slightly longer... so let's use 265 yards for this example. Take your driver distance and multiply it by 28. so 265 * 28= 7420 still probably too long for me. the 5-iron/hybrid distance is probably a better barometer. I hit my 5-iron 185 yards. So you take your 5-iron distance and multiply it by 36 So 185 * 36= 6660. I honestly think that 5-iron distance is a little better barometer... I honestly believe even despite what the chart says:

 

 

 

Edited May 9, 2019 by onthehunt526

[iacas]

5 minutes ago, onthehunt526 said:

Who wants to play 450-yard par 4s where it's a drive, a good hybrid or wood, and a 1/2 SW just to reach the green in 3. You'll struggle to make 4. You may take 5, but you are going to make a lot of 6s, 7s, and others. I'm not saying that you'd ever have more than one par-four at 450 yards playing from the white tees...

There aren't many courses that have 450-yard holes when the total yardage is 6300.

450 x 18 = 8100 yards. 6300 = 350 yards, so you'd need a hole 100 yards longer than average.

Whispering Woods 6500 yards from the blue tees. The longest par fours from those tees are:

• 1: 426 yards (376)
• 8: 423 yards (377)
• 10: 451 yards (390)
• 18: 411 yards (381)

The white tees, the yardages in the parentheses, are 6043 yards. The White tees are the middle tees at WW, and the yardage is "shortened" because holes 4, 5, 14, and 16 require hybrids off the tees, or less. In other words, 6043 yards plays about like 6300 yards because you're taking off about 50 yards from four holes where players don't hit driver (can't, really).

(The tips are 6800 yards, which is why the course plays like it's 7000 yards.)

---

In other words, I don't think these 450-yard holes are popping up very often from 6300-yard tees… unless they're par fives.

[onthehunt526]

2 minutes ago, iacas said:

There aren't many courses that have 450-yard holes when the total yardage is 6300.

450 x 18 = 8100 yards. 6300 = 350 yards, so you'd need a hole 100 yards longer than average.

Whispering Woods 6500 yards from the blue tees. The longest par fours from those tees are:

• 1: 426 yards (376)
• 8: 423 yards (377)
• 10: 451 yards (390)
• 18: 411 yards (381)

The white tees, the yardages in the parentheses, are 6043 yards. The White tees are the middle tees at WW, and the yardage is "shortened" because holes 4, 5, 14, and 16 require hybrids off the tees, or less. In other words, 6043 yards plays about like 6300 yards because you're taking off about 50 yards from four holes where players don't hit driver (can't, really).

(The tips are 6800 yards, which is why the course plays like it's 7000 yards.)

---

In other words, I don't think these 450-yard holes are popping up very often from 6300-yard tees… unless they're par fives.

That's true, Erik. There is one course I know in my area that funny enough is less than 6300 yards and has 3 par 4s over 450 yards.

TEE	PAR	YARDAGE	SLOPE	RATING	1	2	3	4	5	6	7	8	9	OUT	10	11	12	13	14	15	16	17	18	IN	TOTAL
Blue Tees	70	6271	120	69.9	348	139	376	464	494	452	469	188	367	3297	504	349	187	498	183	406	321	224	302	2974	6271
White Tees	70	6044	118	69.5	333	130	358	443	486	439	456	176	356	3177	484	338	174	483	172	398	312	218	288	2867	6044
Red Tees	70	5166	114	68.8	295	122	310	348	344	359	408	164	306	2656	427	328	143	440	144	336	224	216	252	2510	5166
Par	70	70			4	3	4	4	5	4	4	3	4	35	5	4	3	5	3	4	4	3	4	35	70

Canasawacta Country Club in Norwich, NY 4, 6, and 7 from the blue tees are over 450 yards, from the white 4 is 443, 6 is 439, 7 is 452. the 7th is a bear, too. Uphill into the wind all the time. I guess 7 was a par 5 way back when, but when the USGA re-rated the course back in the 1990s the 7th became a par 4. In high school our league championship was on this course and I hit 3-wood/4-iron to 30 feet and made the putt for the only birdie of the day on the 7th. These 3 par-4s are probably an outlier when all is said and done. but from the Blues and Whites at this particular course those 3 holes are absolute bears.