LIV Golf (Saudi PIF), "Mergers," and More

[jbishop15]

2 minutes ago, Big Lex said:

I found the broadcast very entertaining, even with the annoying elevator-tone when a player's score would be highlighted. And I would agree that the PGA Tour has a problem on its hands. As for it being "an exhibition," I would argue that all pro sports are exhibitions. That's the whole point: we get to create heroes and see them fight and battle, without there being an actual war. Governing bodies and so forth legitimize certain events as true "world championships," but the reality is they are all just games, and it's all exhibitions, for our entertainment. Right now, LIV golf has entertainment value, because of those top players...and the small fields and shotgun format mean that when you tune in, you are seeing lots of shots by star players. I expect we will see more players jump in the coming weeks. 

None of that is to say that I think any of it is ethically "clean," i.e., the sportswashing aspect. But it is what it is. 

 

 

You can view it that way, but that is not what an exhibition is. An exhibition in a sports-related context is a contest that does not affect a team or player's standing in whatever sport they are playing -- I suppose you could argue it influences their standing in the negative (IE loss of world ranking points, esteem, etc), but all pro sports are decidedly NOT an exhibition, and this one clearly is.

[Big Lex]

27 minutes ago, Dr. Manhattan said:

 

They need Augusta & PGA of America to bail them out. This isn't like Exxon vs. Chevron in the market, it's Exxon vs. Saudi Aramco. PGA Tour does not have the money to compete. The majors are the only thing that might be a game changer in their favor. 

Everyone has to make a living. We might see that young golfers would rather have a better shot at earning a good living on LIV than fighting to survive on the PGA Tour, even if it means foregoing their shot at winning the Masters (or the US Open, or PGA, or Open). Or, if you've already won a couple, maybe you take the payday and the (maybe?) more enticing format over the status quo. 

I don't dispute the people arguing that this is bad for golf. I'm not qualified to dispute them. But I find this whole thing really interesting, and I am enjoying watching it all play out. Maybe this is the future of golf, a global super-league. 

[Dr. Manhattan]

2 minutes ago, Big Lex said:

I don't dispute the people arguing that this is bad for golf. I'm not qualified to dispute them. But I find this whole thing really interesting, and I am enjoying watching it all play out. Maybe this is the future of golf, a global super-league. 

 

If the majors stay neutral, I think that is the case. Money talks. You have a very rich government attempting to buy the sport. They very well might succeed. 

[Big Lex]

Do we know if ANGC, PGA of America, USGA, and R&A will ban LIV players from their event? I know the USGA said they won't for this year, but maybe they will for coming years? 

[Double Mocha Man]

15 minutes ago, Big Lex said:

Governing bodies and so forth legitimize certain events as true "world championships," but the reality is they are all just games, and it's all exhibitions, for our entertainment.

Thanks @Big Lex, you just ruined the upcoming U.S. Open Exhibition for me.  😀

[klineka]

3 minutes ago, Big Lex said:

Do we know if ANGC, PGA of America, USGA, and R&A will ban LIV players from their event? I know the USGA said they won't for this year, but maybe they will for coming years? 

Nobody really knows for sure.

It's been rumored that ANGC will ban LIV players from The Masters but I haven't seen any rumors regarding the PGA of America or R&A yet

[Double Mocha Man]

1 minute ago, klineka said:

... but I haven't seen any rumors regarding the PGA of America...

I swear, I read somewhere yesterday, that the PGA Championship will follow the lead of the PGA Tour...

[Big Lex]

10 minutes ago, jbishop15 said:

You can view it that way, but that is not what an exhibition is. An exhibition in a sports-related context is a contest that does not affect a team or player's standing in whatever sport they are playing -- I suppose you could argue it influences their standing in the negative (IE loss of world ranking points, esteem, etc), but all pro sports are decidedly NOT an exhibition, and this one clearly is.

And if in five years we have 30 guys from the OWGR top 100 playing on LIV, do you think the OWGR will ignore the LIV tournament results? Standings and rankings are arbitrary to some degree. All sports are exhibitions, some acquire prestige or reputation, but all of that can change, and does, over time. 

3 minutes ago, klineka said:

Nobody really knows for sure.

It's been rumored that ANGC will ban LIV players from The Masters but I haven't seen any rumors regarding the PGA of America or R&A yet

I wouldn't be surprised if LIV players were banned from even being on the property at ANGC. I guess it depends on whether they want to play hardball. But they'd be rolling the dice....

[iacas]

24 minutes ago, jbishop15 said:

I suppose you could argue it influences their standing in the negative (IE loss of world ranking points, esteem, etc), but all pro sports are decidedly NOT an exhibition, and this one clearly is.

This isn't an exhibition. It's a competition. They're awarding prize money and everything.

14 minutes ago, Big Lex said:

Do we know if ANGC, PGA of America, USGA, and R&A will ban LIV players from their event? I know the USGA said they won't for this year, but maybe they will for coming years? 

I keep hearing the Masters will do its own thing. And the British Open can't under some law.

7 minutes ago, Big Lex said:

I wouldn't be surprised if LIV players were banned from even being on the property at ANGC. I guess it depends on whether they want to play hardball. But they'd be rolling the dice....

I've heard one Masters champ asked and was told he wouldn't be allowed on the property. So he stayed away from LIV, when he was going to go.

7 minutes ago, Big Lex said:

And if in five years we have 30 guys from the OWGR top 100 playing on LIV, do you think the OWGR will ignore the LIV tournament results? Standings and rankings are arbitrary to some degree. All sports are exhibitions, some acquire prestige or reputation, but all of that can change, and does, over time. 

Their standings will decrease and they won't be top 100 after awhile if they don't keep earning points.

[iacas]

 

[Big Lex]

Not trying to be a nerd or jerk with the exhibition argument....I get the difference between pro sports events which are official versus unofficial, with regard to some standard, ranking, etc. Right now, if "exhibition" is defined as something unofficial, then yes, of course, LIV golf is an "exhibition." 

My point - an obvious one I think - is that they are all exhibitions. The events may be created for the purpose of crowning champions, but when they sell tickets and put it on TV, they are also capitalizing on its appeal as an exhibition. They work together, the exhibition aspect allowing them to generate revenue, which can be used as prize money, which can attract the best players in the world, etc. And there are other benefits, like the global media exposure, which enhances the prestige and legitimacy of the event, creates interest in the game, etc. etc. 

If LIV does well (if all the best players play in their events, if lots of people watch the broadcasts, etc.), its events will eventually cease to be considered unofficial events, or exhibitions if you prefer that term. If their players are ignored by the OWGR, then they'll create their own rankings. If people claim the PGA Tour has the best players, but LIV seems to have better players, then someone will want to stage competitions between them, etc. etc. 

I hope it either fades away, or, if it perseveres, that they can reach some kind of equitable agreement with the existing golf entities. I agree it's best for the game if we have one leading voice, not several. We don't need a recapitulation of the WBA, WBC, IBF in boxing, etc. 

 

[jmanbooyaa]

It seems like the Masters will hold the key to who may go in the future to LIV. If they ban said players that may be enough to prevent talent from heading there. That is a big maybe as the money offered is staggering. It would be crazy for a Phil, Sergio and DJ to no longer be allowed to play the Masters. 2nd part is there an out for the LIV players? What if DJ decides this really is not my thing. Can he eat crow and tell the PGA tour he made a mistake and would like to be reinstated? 

[PeaceFrogg]

33 minutes ago, iacas said:

 

Norman always had a very punchable face.

[Golfer20]

I have a feeling Jay Monahan is not going to be getting much sleep the next couple of weeks... Saw the promo where they were (possibly) teasing Matthew Wolff and Bubba Watson going to LIV... Who knows... maybe LIV just forgot to edit them out.

48 minutes ago, iacas said:

 

 

Here's the video.

[boogielicious]

So maybe I will learn the Arabic word for a-hole and shout it out to Phil next week at the US Open. Or maybe just yell Khashoggi. 

[Dr. Manhattan]

1 hour ago, jmanbooyaa said:

It seems like the Masters will hold the key to who may go in the future to LIV. If they ban said players that may be enough to prevent talent from heading there. That is a big maybe as the money offered is staggering. It would be crazy for a Phil, Sergio and DJ to no longer be allowed to play the Masters. 2nd part is there an out for the LIV players? What if DJ decides this really is not my thing. Can he eat crow and tell the PGA tour he made a mistake and would like to be reinstated? 

 

Would have to be one heck of a "crow eating" situation. 

[iacas]

Rounds still took nearly five hours. With sixteen threesomes on 18 holes.

If they truly want to innovate… make the rounds 4:00 with two penalty strokes for every partial five minute increment you go beyond four hours. Imagine the drama if a group of non-counting scorers hold up a trio of golfers so that their team can win the team component! That's TV I'd love to see. 🙂 (Plus, you know, the playing faster crap.)

Seriously, they showed a lot of golf shots, but they also showed a lot of people pacing around the greens, going over yardages with their caddies AFTER the previous player in their group hit, etc.

I get it. Pro golfers worldwide are used to working at that pace. But… they're also not used to $4M for first place, sports washing, etc. So speed it up. They'll get used to it quickly.

2 hours ago, Big Lex said:

Not trying to be a nerd or jerk with the exhibition argument....I get the difference between pro sports events which are official versus unofficial, with regard to some standard, ranking, etc. Right now, if "exhibition" is defined as something unofficial, then yes, of course, LIV golf is an "exhibition." 

What's "unofficial" about it? Or a PGA Tour event? Is that "official"? DP World Tour? Korn Ferry? Epson Tour?

It's not "unofficial." It's not an exhibition, either.

2 hours ago, jmanbooyaa said:

It seems like the Masters will hold the key to who may go in the future to LIV. If they ban said players that may be enough to prevent talent from heading there. That is a big maybe as the money offered is staggering. It would be crazy for a Phil, Sergio and DJ to no longer be allowed to play the Masters. 2nd part is there an out for the LIV players? What if DJ decides this really is not my thing. Can he eat crow and tell the PGA tour he made a mistake and would like to be reinstated? 

Like I've said… I've heard a Masters champ who was planning to go to LIV asked Augusta National and was told he wouldn't be allowed back on the grounds. That means so much to him he changed his mind on going to LIV.

[jmanbooyaa]

14 minutes ago, iacas said:

Like I've said… I've heard a Masters champ who was planning to go to LIV asked Augusta National and was told he wouldn't be allowed mingoing to LI

Could that players be Bubba?