LIV Golf (Saudi PIF), "Mergers," and More

[StuM]

41 minutes ago, ChetlovesMer said:

Ha ha, fair enough. 

You are, of course, correct.

That was more me just bitching about how high property tax is where I live than really adding to the conversation. ... I try not to miss any opportunities to bitch about how high my taxes are. It's a bit of a sore spot with me. 

Np, I know “off topic” but I have lived in the same house since 1994 am due to caps on tax increases and a well timed challenge of my assessment after the financial crises my taxes are real low relative to many.

now, on topic, even Rory has softened and suggested Rahm should be on next Ryder Cup and also said overall they need to “Let bygones be bygones”. 

Edited December 10, 2023 by StuM

[jxdama]

2 hours ago, GaLefty said:

I've heard Homa too.  I think they know they can get a big payday and still be back on the PGA tour soon.

If Homa, Finau, and Hatton go then the  PGA can actually  have a  very  profitable  weekly tv  format. Pay  Tiger Woods to play  a  practice round every  sunday  and  pay him 2 million to televise his every shot  and  just tell everyone else to stay home  or  go to LIV. 

[iacas]

28 minutes ago, jxdama said:

If Homa, Finau, and Hatton go then the  PGA can actually  have a  very  profitable  weekly tv  format. Pay  Tiger Woods to play  a  practice round every  sunday  and  pay him 2 million to televise his every shot  and  just tell everyone else to stay home  or  go to LIV. 

Your track record is unbroken, but your record is broken.

You say something dumb every time you post. 😛 

[Moxley]

Looks like the momentum is behind Liv again, maybe soon golf will unite behind it and we'll have something interesting outside of the majors again 👍

[turtleback]

I'm just glad I've lived my life during the golden years of the Nicklaus/Tiger era, because as far as I'm concerned it has turned into manure, driven by greed and hypocrisy.

[StuM]

58 minutes ago, turtleback said:

I'm just glad I've lived my life during the golden years of the Nicklaus/Tiger era, because as far as I'm concerned it has turned into manure, driven by greed and hypocrisy.

Do not take the following personal.

You sound a lot like my father did when I was young.  Things were always "Better before" and currently things are "Stupid bad" and of course to me as a teenager/young adult everything seemed normal and I felt he was "Out of touch".  Now, I am saying things similar to you about how much better it was before and I can't believe how bad some things have become....and if I had kids I would suspect they would be thinking I am old and out of touch.  Change is inevitable and not always to our liking.

[Moxley]

4 hours ago, StuM said:

Do not take the following personal.

You sound a lot like my father did when I was young.  Things were always "Better before" and currently things are "Stupid bad" and of course to me as a teenager/young adult everything seemed normal and I felt he was "Out of touch".  Now, I am saying things similar to you about how much better it was before and I can't believe how bad some things have become....and if I had kids I would suspect they would be thinking I am old and out of touch.  Change is inevitable and not always to our liking.

Very fair, I can also have a tendency to think that way, and it's struck me too that it's maybe a generational thing. 

 

I don't necessarily think things will end up worse, and I also think LIV have some interesting ideas while the PGA were too old fashioned. All that said , I think getting there is going to involve several lost years for the sport, and I get the dismay some are expressing.

[StuM]

1 hour ago, Moxley said:

Very fair, I can also have a tendency to think that way, and it's struck me too that it's maybe a generational thing. 

 

I don't necessarily think things will end up worse, and I also think LIV have some interesting ideas while the PGA were too old fashioned. All that said , I think getting there is going to involve several lost years for the sport, and I get the dismay some are expressing.

Same here.  I know others here hate it, but I like the shotgun start idea.  Gets more golfer on the course quicker & and shortens length of time to show the tournament.  All too often coverage starts well into the round and you miss a lot of the early golfers.  Of course, the coverage needs to actually show them and drop the fluff pieces.  We should be able to see more actual golf in the same tv time allotment.

Edited December 11, 2023 by StuM

[GolfLug]

7 hours ago, StuM said:

Do not take the following personal.

You sound a lot like my father did when I was young.  Things were always "Better before" and currently things are "Stupid bad" and of course to me as a teenager/young adult everything seemed normal and I felt he was "Out of touch".  Now, I am saying things similar to you about how much better it was before and I can't believe how bad some things have become....and if I had kids I would suspect they would be thinking I am old and out of touch.  Change is inevitable and not always to our liking.

Nah, I'm with him. I don't think it's grandpa pooh-poohing progress. Not a whole lot of kids finding LIV cool or adapting it as progress. Golf play has been up viewership has been declining to begin with. This LIV BS makes it even more lame.

3 hours ago, Moxley said:

I don't necessarily think things will end up worse, and I also think LIV have some interesting ideas while the PGA were too old fashioned. All that said , I think getting there is going to involve several lost years for the sport, and I get the dismay some are expressing.

That's the problem. No evidence of any of LIV ideas being interesting enough to claim improvement on poor 'old fashioned' PGAT.

Pro golf seems to be heading to no man's land. Maybe like tennis, where people only care about it four times a year. Rest of it not very compelling. 

Thank God golf is alive and well with the weekend bourgeois.

[iacas]

PGA Tour set for pivotal PIF meeting following investment decision

---

The PGA Tour's latest decision comes ahead of commissioner Jay Monahan and PIF head Yasir Al-Rumayyan meeting in person this week.

[jsgolfer]

11 hours ago, GolfLug said:

That's the problem. No evidence of any of LIV ideas being interesting enough to claim improvement on poor 'old fashioned' PGAT.

Thank God golf is alive and well with the weekend bourgeois.

I'm with V, I'm certainly glad that golf is alive and well at my club, all the time.   But I too just can't wrap my head around what below is interesting?

54 Holes - Eh, Senior Tour territory

No Cut - Double Eh, other than money (which probably most of them don't need), what's the reason for playing, it's like Country Club Exhibition golf for a ton of money. I'm not sure there are enough of the "baba-booey" and "it's in the hole" guys to make this out draw the PGA tour. I think their TV ratings are abysmal, really the CW network. 

Limited Field - OK for Master's, I have no interest in watching the same 48 players play every round, boring.  Could care less about d***heads Patrick Redd and Poulter, not sure why the LIV think those two are a draw. Brooks Koepka whoopie, another guy with the personality of a wet noodle. 

Shotgun Starts - Awful - This is scramble territory.  

Payouts for last place - I'm glad they ae making buckets of money. I would take it too if I was them. But you make $120,000 grand for showing up, 

Team Element - Another snoozer, you can suck playing and get on a hot team and still make a bucket of cash.

No path to getting into field, at least on the PGA tour you have a few ways to make the tour.    

14 Events - blah

 

[saevel25]

4 minutes ago, jsgolfer said:

No Cut - Double Eh, other than money (which probably most of them don't need), what's the reason for playing, it's like Country Club Exhibition golf for a ton of money. I'm not sure there are enough of the "baba-booey" and "it's in the hole" guys to make this out draw the PGA tour. I think their TV ratings are abysmal, really the CW network. 

Yea, I think it would be more interesting if they had a cut after every round. 

64 to 32 to 16 to 8 would be interesting. In that, I think the previous rounds should not count towards the future rounds. Fresh restart, or at least fresh restart on the last day.

6 minutes ago, jsgolfer said:

Limited Field - OK for Master's, I have no interest in watching the same 48 players play every round, boring.  Could care less about d***heads Patrick Redd and Poulter, not sure why the LIV think those two are a draw. Brooks Koepka whoopie, another guy with the personality of a wet noodle. 

Golfers always had horrible personalities on the course. So, I wouldn't bash the LIV guys on personality. It's not like the remaining PGA Tour players are any better. 

8 minutes ago, jsgolfer said:

Payouts for last place - I'm glad they ae making buckets of money. I would take it too if I was them. But you make $120,000 grand for showing up, 

I thought the PGA tour could have done better for all golfers. Like cover expenses for travel or what not. Or, if you play in x-number of tournaments, then you get a base salary of like $250K per year. Like, if you play in 20 event. Below that, it decreases based on how many tournaments you play. 

 

[pganapathy]

I never understood the problem with shotgun starts.  This is how we play our club tournaments purely because you can get everybody on the course at once and hopefully they all finish at roughly the same time.  Makes catering easier and gives you a chance to meet everybody.  It also means in a professional tournament you have a lesser time needed for broadcast though it does mean everybody is on the course at once so following multiple groups is difficult (live or even on TV).

[jsgolfer]

9 minutes ago, pganapathy said:

I never understood the problem with shotgun starts.  This is how we play our club tournaments purely because you can get everybody on the course at once and hopefully they all finish at roughly the same time.  Makes catering easier and gives you a chance to meet everybody.  It also means in a professional tournament you have a lesser time needed for broadcast though it does mean everybody is on the course at once so following multiple groups is difficult (live or even on TV).

A couple problems with it, shotgun starts are fine for scrambles and some club events, but I wouldn't want our club championship or other major stroke events to be a shotgun start.  Our club never does that, unless it is something weather related. Also, the 18th hole may become anti-climatic if players are tied or close to lead, if they are out somewhere else on the course.  18 at Pebble Beach would become just another hole. Also, some holes on the course are harder/easier than others, do the leaders get to pick which hole they want to start on, or do they always start on one? May or may not be an advantage, I know our first hole is one of the tougher holes on our course, there are far more holes I would rather start on than that one, pretty much any Par 5.

Plus, I don't think this would lessen the time at all.  For a full field and a morning and afternoon tee time, they would have to go to foursomes (72 players), unless they double up some holes with threesomes.  They are slow enough as it is with threesomes and twosomes using tee times, foursomes would be snail pace.  

And I'm guessing very few of the players are hanging around after golf to meet and shoot the shit with the other players and have lunch or dinner.  

44 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

Yea, I think it would be more interesting if they had a cut after every round. 

64 to 32 to 16 to 8 would be interesting. In that, I think the previous rounds should not count towards the future rounds. Fresh restart, or at least fresh restart on the last day.

Golfers always had horrible personalities on the course. So, I wouldn't bash the LIV guys on personality. It's not like the remaining PGA Tour players are any better. 

I thought the PGA tour could have done better for all golfers. Like cover expenses for travel or what not. Or, if you play in x-number of tournaments, then you get a base salary of like $250K per year. Like, if you play in 20 event. Below that, it decreases based on how many tournaments you play. 

 

I agree, a lot of the players on the tour don't have good personalities, but when there are 150 players, the douche's don't seem as prevalent to me.  When it's only 48, they stick out like a sore thumb, and the LIV took most of the bigger douche's. The tour is going to provide 500K for the fully exempt players this year who play at least 15 events, so that is a start, should probably do more for all players

Maybe it will catch on with the younger crowd, but it's definitely not at my club.  

[saevel25]

12 minutes ago, jsgolfer said:

A couple problems with it, shotgun starts are fine for scrambles and some club events, but I wouldn't want our club championship or other major stroke events to be a shotgun start.  Our club never does that, unless it is something weather related. Also, the 18th hole may become anti-climatic if players are tied or close to lead, if they are out somewhere else on the course.  18 at Pebble Beach would become just another hole.

Probably the best reason why not to do this on the final day. I do not care if the first 2 or 3 rounds are shot gun start. I just want to watch golf, and the end of the day doesn't matter like it does on Sunday. 

13 minutes ago, jsgolfer said:

May or may not be an advantage, I know our first hole is one of the tougher holes on our course, there are far more holes I would rather start on than that one, pretty much any Par 5.

Not sure that is that big of a deal. 

13 minutes ago, jsgolfer said:

Plus, I don't think this would lessen the time at all.  For a full field and a morning and afternoon tee time, they would have to go to foursomes (72 players), unless they double up some holes with threesomes.  They are slow enough as it is with threesomes and twosomes using tee times, foursomes would be snail pace.  

You would have to limit the field to 72 golfers. If your shotgun start, then all of them start at 8:00 AM, even if it is a 6-hour round, it finished by 2pm. Overall, you are not going from 8:00 AM till 6:00 PM, and not flirting with darkness at certain courses at certain times of the year. 

I wouldn't mind 72 golfers for Thursday/Friday and cut it down to 36 golfers for Saturday and Sunday. Or even go 72,72,36,18. If you have a gradual cut, it could make each day have stakes. 

 

[DeadMan]

Honestly, there are some aspects of LIV that are positive:

• Say what you will about the competitive aspects of the shotgun start, but the point of it was to make it more viewer-friendly. All the action is on the course at once, and the viewing window gets trimmed down to 4 (ish) hours. And, supposedly, the TV product when it was on YouTube was pretty good. Hard to be worse than the PGA Tour, though.
• Bringing big-time tournaments to golf-starved areas is a good idea. The LIV event in Australia seemed like it was great for fans at that tournament. There are other countries that would be great for a big-time event - I'm thinking Japan, Korea, South Africa, probably Ireland, too. An actual worldwide tour could be a great thing. Even in the US, the PGA Tour is very concentrated in the southern part of the US. It would be good to have a big event in Seattle, for example. Or go to Chicago more frequently. 
• I think there could be something with a team golf set up. LIV definitely hasn't gotten this right yet, but there is probably a way to do it that makes it interesting.

These do not outweigh the obvious negatives, particularly LIV devouring professional golf right now. And LIV definitely hasn't gotten any of these bullets right. But there is definitely a way to make golf better for fans and viewers, and a model like LIV's is closer than the PGA Tour's.

Edited December 11, 2023 by DeadMan

[GolfLug]

3 hours ago, DeadMan said:

Honestly, there are some aspects of LIV that are positive:

• Say what you will about the competitive aspects of the shotgun start, but the point of it was to make it more viewer-friendly. All the action is on the course at once, and the viewing window gets trimmed down to 4 (ish) hours. And, supposedly, the TV product when it was on YouTube was pretty good. Hard to be worse than the PGA Tour, though.
• Bringing big-time tournaments to golf-starved areas is a good idea. The LIV event in Australia seemed like it was great for fans at that tournament. There are other countries that would be great for a big-time event - I'm thinking Japan, Korea, South Africa, probably Ireland, too. An actual worldwide tour could be a great thing. Even in the US, the PGA Tour is very concentrated in the southern part of the US. It would be good to have a big event in Seattle, for example. Or go to Chicago more frequently. 
• I think there could be something with a team golf set up. LIV definitely hasn't gotten this right yet, but there is probably a way to do it that makes it interesting.

These do not outweigh the obvious negatives, particularly LIV devouring professional golf right now. And LIV definitely hasn't gotten any of these bullets right. But there is definitely a way to make golf better for fans and viewers, and a model like LIV's is closer than the PGA Tour's.

I guess small positives, and maybe the PGAT adapts some for like th JD Classic or something, but doing that via LIV is throwing away the baby with the bathwater.  

Shotgun - It's fine for a limited courses where finishing on 18th wouldn't matter. Imagine bunch of players at TPC Sawgrass finishing at, well, not the 18th, and holes leading up to it.  

Big-time tournaments - Maybe you mean big-time players. I appreciate the idea of a world wide tour and need for outreach to more remote places but unless the handful of elite players play year around and all over the map, that's always going to be a challenge. 

Holistically, it's hard to shake off this feeling that LIV golf is simply glorified silly season type golf. If it becomes the main circus, then I would count myself out as a serious fan/viewer. No other sport has felt the need to this kind of makeover and they have their own similar laments.  

[colin007]

Really hoping Finau doesn't go