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27 minutes ago, David in FL said:

One of the things we don’t know yet, that I’d like to know.  Are the current vaccines effective against the many variants out there already, and against the many more that will inevitably come?

For the current known variants, it's doing really well. 

Yes there is an unknown, but if 90% of the world got vaccinated as quickly as possible then we wouldn't have to worry about the unknown variants. Because the virus wouldn't have time to mutate to stay going. Easy to understand. 

27 minutes ago, David in FL said:

If someone refuses to take the vaccine, aren’t they responsible for their risk?  I certainly would blame anyone else if I were to contract the virus.

Yes, they are responsible for your own risk, but you are also putting others at risk who want the vaccine, but who have not gotten it yet. How ironic would that be if you gave someone the virus right before they get the vaccine. 

18 minutes ago, David in FL said:

In your opinion.

I’ve given many reasons.  The fact that you don’t consider them valid doesn’t mean that they’re not.

The fact that you consider me to be “selfish” doesn’t bother me in the least.  My first responsibility is to me and my family.  Yours is to yours.  We do what we think is best given our analysis of the information at hand.

My opinion is based on the current figures. It's an easy probability solution here. It's not like I am making up numbers. 

I figured that out quickly it doesn't bother you. I wasn't trying to bother you. One more person who gets vaccinated is the sooner we get this over with. 

You are doing a great disservice to your family. My opinion, but I would be heart broken if I gave my family COVID-19. I am 100% proud that my family got the vaccine as soon as it came into their age group. It scared the crap out of me that my aunt ended up in the hospital right before the vaccine came out catching COVID. She was close to being put on a ventilator. 

I don't know what numbers you are looking at, but you really have no standing here outside of being obstinate. 

10 minutes ago, David in FL said:

I retired from the Maine Corps.  If you’d like to chat about the sacrifice and selflessness that goes with having served in peacetime and war, I’ll be happy to help overcome your ignorance, but this isn’t the thread for that...

Now its very ironic. 

Let me ask you a question, if there was a pill or shot out there that was 95% effective of you never having a stroke, would you take it? Or what about developing Alzheimer's Disease? Would you take the pill? 

Edited by saevel25
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1 minute ago, iacas said:

You don’t seem to understand how dumb that is.

Or this.

And we’re at six months now.

Indeed. Your duty is to society too.

Here’s your chance.  You claim to have these answers, so let’s start with 3 pretty straightforward questions...

What are the long term side affects of the vaccines available now...both mRNA and viral vector-based?  Let’s say 2 years out.

How effective will each vax type be against the different virus variants that evolve?

How long will the initial efficacy of each vax type remain in any given person?

Thanks.

 

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David, waiting for the perfect vaccine is like waiting for the perfect golf swing.  Just play it as it lies.

I know we've all painted you into a corner. Get the shot and tell nobody.  Hell, a political cult figure and his wife did just that.

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5 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

Let me ask you a question, if there was a pill or shot out there that was 95% effective of you never having a stroke, would you take it? Or what about developing Alzheimer's Disease? Would you take the pill? 

Not until I understood more about the vaccine.

Its also worth noting that Alzheimer’s is 100% fatal.  1 in 4 stroke victims die within the first year.  Outside of a well defined demographic, Covid mortality is in the 0.03% range, so the comparison is silly.

2 minutes ago, Double Mocha Man said:

David, waiting for the perfect vaccine is like waiting for the perfect golf swing.  Just play it as it lies.

I know we've all painted you into a corner. Get the shot and tell nobody.  Hell, a political cult figure and his wife did just that.

Why would I get the vaccine just because you disagree with me?  Once my questions are answered I very well may.

Unlike some, I don’t have medical procedures done, nor take medication just because of peer pressure.  

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(edited)
9 minutes ago, David in FL said:

Unlike some, I don’t have medical procedures done, nor take medication just because of peer pressure.  

Not all medicines actually do a service to others around you. So there should be peer pressure in this case. You do not spread hear disease or cancer by breathing on people. 

Just for your sanity...

How Do We Know the COVID-19 Vaccine Won’t Have Long-Term Side Effects? (muhealth.org)

Quote

History shows this is a common pattern. When new vaccines are released, the unknown side effects, if any, show up within two months of vaccination. This history goes back to at least the 1960s with the oral polio vaccine and examples continue through today.

 

Edited by saevel25
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(edited)
58 minutes ago, Double Mocha Man said:

You would be preaching to the choir. I served in the military myself.

And, if you've noted, I've refrained from using the word "ignorance".

Then you should know, it has never been, nor will it ever be, someone’s duty to give their life in the service.  In fact, we go to great lengths to train to try to ensure that doesn’t happen.

Edited by David in FL
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1 hour ago, David in FL said:

What are the long term side affects of the vaccines available now...both mRNA and viral vector-based?  Let’s say 2 years out.

How effective will each vax type be against the different virus variants that evolve?

How long will the initial efficacy of each vax type remain in any given person?

Define long term. Because we are past the sixth month you wrote about.

Vaccines aren’t new.

The vaccine is proving to be pretty damn affective against the current variants and the more people get vaccinated the fewer future variants we will have. This vaccine is not going to stop every coronavirus ever. It’s not a SARS vaccine for example. Or a MERS vaccine. Waiting to see that given the evidence we have now is willful stubbornness.

And the answer to your final question is that it will vary but even if it’s one year like the flu vaccine then we can have a lot more of a return to normalcy that you so crave, and fewer dead people, in the meantime and sooner.

Look, you showed your hand when you called it an extended “clinical trial.” You don’t know what you’re talking about so you are pretending that you are waiting for more information when all of the information you should need as a member of society is out there. Vaccines are not new science. Even this type isn’t new.

At the end of the day what you think are “reasons” are actually just excuses.

I’m a contrarian. But I’m also not a moron. I understand and read the science. The data. You’re willfully not doing so, or willfully setting such a high bar to clear that you’re able to justify your inaction.

20 minutes ago, David in FL said:

Then you should know, it has never been, nor will it ever be, someone’s duty to give their life in the service.  In fact, we go to great lengths to train to try to ensure that doesn’t happen.

It’s also your duty to protect others, which you are failing to do right now.

If I could take a pill that had all the same data and information as the current vaccines that guaranteed to 95% effectiveness that I would never seriously injure someone else in a car accident I would take it immediately.

Even though the odds of that are also pretty low.

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1 hour ago, David in FL said:

Here’s your chance.  You claim to have these answers, so let’s start with 3 pretty straightforward questions...

What are the long term side affects of the vaccines available now...both mRNA and viral vector-based?  Let’s say 2 years out.

How effective will each vax type be against the different virus variants that evolve?

How long will the initial efficacy of each vax type remain in any given person?

Thanks.

 

mRNA vaccines are designed to withstand many variants.  It is literally impossible to say what variants will arise though.

To the third, why would that matter on whether you take it or not? If you take more, you take more.  I'd assume the first two questions are the key for you, the third is more curiosity.  Would the third be a make it or break it moment?  If anything, it could be yearly.  But the more people vaccinate, the less likely it is we'd need to take more.

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40 minutes ago, David in FL said:

Then you should know, it has never been, nor will it ever be, someone’s duty to give their life in the service.  In fact, we go to great lengths to train to try to ensure that doesn’t happen.

Of course.  Almost all of us strive, through research and training and other methods, to stay alive.   Military or not.  But in the military you must be willing to put yourself in harm's way to protect your country.  The result could be your death.  When you go in you know this.

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13 minutes ago, iacas said:

Define long term. Because we are past the sixth month you wrote about.

 

I said in my post, let’s start simple with 2-years.  
 

13 minutes ago, iacas said:

 

The vaccine is proving to be pretty damn affective against the current variants and the more people get vaccinated the fewer future variants we will have. This vaccine is not going to stop every coronavirus ever. It’s not a SARS vaccine for example. Or a MERS vaccine. Waiting to see that given the evidence we have now is willful stubbornness.

 

 

 

You call it stubbornness, I call it prudence.

Others disagree with “pretty damn effective” against current variants, let alone those to come.   It’s also worth noting that different vaccines have different levels of effectiveness.

 

1800x1200_covid19_myths_you_shouldnt_bel

Drug makers scramble to adapt vaccines to coronavirus variants before they outwit our immune systems.

 

 

13 minutes ago, iacas said:

 

I’m a contrarian. But I’m also not a moron. I understand and read the science. The data. You’re willfully not doing so, or willfully setting such a high bar to clear that you’re able to justify your inaction.

Again, your personal opinion. And yes, I read and understand the science as well.

 

24 minutes ago, iacas said:

 

It’s also your duty to protect others, which you are failing to do right now.

Not necessarily. Oftentimes it was my duty to actually put people in harms way…

 

 

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(edited)

From all I have read, any known long term effects of an mRNA vaccine manifests within the first two months. It does NOT affect genetic makeup since it never enters the nucleus. 

Conditions/effects that manifest over longer periods of time are caused by repeat use/exposure at some frequency that builds up incrementally...like.. tobacco or your garden variety narcotics, lead, arsenic, etc. 

Edited by GolfLug
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1 hour ago, Double Mocha Man said:

Of course.  Almost all of us strive, through research and training and other methods, to stay alive.   Military or not.  But in the military you must be willing to put yourself in harm's way to protect your country.  The result could be your death.  When you go in you know this.

Yep.

And I did so voluntarily, after doing my research.And I did so voluntarily, after doing my research.

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48 minutes ago, David in FL said:

Yep.

And I did so voluntarily, after doing my research. And I did so voluntarily, after doing my research.

You know, the vaccine has a nice side effect... it keeps you from repeating yourself.  😁

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2 hours ago, David in FL said:

I said in my post, let’s start simple with 2-years.

We have many, many, many years of understanding how vaccines work. Decades. You're talking as if this is something completely new and making excuses.

2 hours ago, David in FL said:

You call it stubbornness, I call it prudence.

It's more prudent to get the vaccine.

Please, David, let's imagine the vaccine is 75% effective at the major variants, and 50% effective against the minor ones, and the side effects are what they are - pretty damn minimal, really.

Even with those drastically reduced numbers, what are the downsides to getting the vaccine? You might be a bit under the weather for a day?

2 hours ago, David in FL said:

Others disagree with “pretty damn effective” against current variants, let alone those to come.   It’s also worth noting that different vaccines have different levels of effectiveness.

Nah, that's just bullshit.

  • The vaccines are pretty damn effective against current variants. This is true for all reasonable definitions of "pretty damn effective." And the more vaccinated people we get, the fewer variants we'll have. Fact.
  • The various clinical trials were conducted under vastly different circumstances, and the vaccines — all of them — were basically the same (at about 100%) effective against death from COVID. This is also a fact.

You're offering up excuses couched as "knowledge," when really, the knowledge and information is out there to be had. Actual information. Actual data. You simply haven't looked. You've skimmed a few headlines. Talked to some people at your pool hall.

Read beyond the headlines, man. You can say you have, but I don't believe you, because you've never shared any type of information that paints your actions as "prudent" or paints the vaccines in a negative light, really.

 

2 hours ago, David in FL said:

Not necessarily. Oftentimes it was my duty to actually put people in harms way…

Well, you're acting in a way that's putting people in harm's way now. More than just yourself.

1 hour ago, GolfLug said:

From all I have read, any known long term effects of an mRNA vaccine manifests within the first two months. It does NOT affect genetic makeup since it never enters the nucleus.

And some folks would know these things if they read beyond the headlines.

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I have seen this before.  It may strike a nerve with David, bless his heart.  Putting forth a ton of "I want to wait" babble is oftentimes a cover up for something else, something that person is unwilling to share. 

In David's case it may be a strong allegiance to his buddies at the pool hall... he'd look foolish in their eyes if he did get vaccinated.  It may be an abject fear of needles he doesn't want to reveal.  It may be that his parents were anti-vaxers and he still buys in.  Oh hell, it just might have something to do with machismo. 

We will probably never know the real reason behind David's reluctance to be vaccinated.

Humans have a way of talking around things they don't want to deal with.

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Though it hasn't been years since getting the vaccine my 83 year old stepmother got the Pfizer vaccine this past January and up until now has had no adverse side effects, also my 91 year old mother has had the Moderna vaccine last March with zero side effects. Bottom line is these are safe take them not just for yourself but for everyone around you.

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To be afraid of long-term effects of well understood medical technology, but not potential long-term effects of a novel virus infection makes zero sense.

Vaccine and mRNA medicine/technology (which is not new) are well understood. We understand how they work and what the short and long-term risks are. That is to say, we know they are safe and effective.

We do not fully understand the long-term effects of being infected with Coronarvirus, because it is novel. We already know of the "long covid" scenario. There are other research papers that indicate possible effects. I think I read something about cardiac tissue in kids being affected, even though they are relatively unscathed by virus symptoms. Plus there was the recent study about erectile dysfunction/penile tissue after coronavirus infection. Of course, this type of research may or may not hold up as more studies are done (this is fundamental element of science). But there is clearly more potential risk of long-term issues from the virus, compared to the vaccine.

This thread is reminiscent of trying to convince my 5 year old to eat a tiny piece of broccoli so he can get an ice cream cone, but he utterly refuses to see past the broccoli.

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