Race and Inclusion in America and Beyond

[krupa]

2 hours ago, iacas said:

Today an older person during a lesson told me a story about a "colored" woman, and I cringed inwardly. It wasn't my place to say anything at the time, mostly because I felt he was just using an outdated term but wasn't using it in a pejorative way, but it made me cringe, made me pause for a second, made me think. Should I have said something? To gain what? I don't know if there's a "right" answer to that, because again, he wasn't (IMO) saying it as a negative, he was saying it as if he had said the word "tall" or "skinny" or "brunette."

I don't know if it's appropriate to say something to a client, but when my mother-in-law would say something like that, or just include the person's race when relating a story, my wife would ask her, "does the person's race matter in this story?"  (It never did.)  I don't think my wife really accomplished much because then my MIL would do the same thing but then follow it with "I know I'm not supposed to say that part" or something similar. 

[Darkfrog]

2 hours ago, iacas said:

I do think that this stuff will decrease over time. My generation, for lack of a better word, feels less "racist" than my parents', and my child's feels less than my own. Racism, intentional/conscious or otherwise, is a learned, taught thing. So is discrimination of any type, really.

I think that I see this happening too, and hopefully we continue the progress of generational decrease in discrimination/racism. Of course, that is viewed through my biases, and living in a progressive part of the country, maybe I'm projecting my experience inappropriately. On the other hand, I have relatives from less progressive areas, who claim that they're not racist, but will casually refer to black people as the N word, and will vehemently deny there is any such thing as white privilege because they work hard for everything they have, while most black people (in their view) live better than them on government assistance. So while I believe we are progressing, overt racism is still around.

I think an important aspect of the Black Lives Matter movement is dismantling systemic racism that has become so entrenched in our lives that maybe we fail to even take notice of it, things like food deserts, racial profiling, gerrymandering, gentrification, etc. An example of this in my hometown (Oakland, CA) is the discrepancy in public education. I live in what was historically a working class black and Italian neighborhood. The old Italian diaspora has more or less scattered to the wind as the younger generations left Oakland and moved to the suburbs. Most of the long time black residents who weren't homeowners have been priced out of the neighborhood due to the tech boom in San Francisco (a typical rent for a 1-bedroom apartment is $3000-3500), with landlords often circumventing rent control measures to get longtime residents out for new, wealthier tenants. Many black families that did own homes lost them to foreclosure due to predatory lending during the mortgage crisis, and these homes were then flipped by real estate investors and sold to well off white families for $1.2-1.5 million. Even so, the student body of the elementary school a block from my house is mostly low income black and latino kids from close by, but much less affluent neighborhoods. The PTA at this school only raises $40-50k a year for supplementary programs like art, music, etc., which means these important enrichment programs barely exist at this school. Most of the affluent, white residents in the neighborhood don't send their kids to this school, so the tech boom wealth of the new people moving into the neighborhood never reaches the community schools. My wife and I did not want to send our kids to the local school because in addition to the lack of PTA fundraising, the academic ratings of the school are among the worst in the city. So we entered the city's school admission lottery, and got into a school in a much more affluent neighborhood. The lottery was a luxury for us because my wife mostly works from home so she can manage drop off and pickup in a different neighborhood. For many, this is impossible with two working parents, or single parents working multiple jobs, etc. The school where my daughter goes to kindergarten raises close to $500k annually. It is a night and day difference. So in some sense, our decision to not attend the local school is part of the problem, but also, we want the best possible education that we can provide for our kids. We are not poor, but we bought our home before the neighborhood became so expensive (we would be priced out if we wanted to live here now), and we can't afford to send our kids to private school. This is just one thing that I feel we need to change to bring equality to everyone.

One thing I started doing on the advice of a friend, is to make a point to support black owned business. I'm not much of a retail/restaurant person myself (most of my spending is on golf/golf equipment), but I found a list of local black owned restaurants and shops that I plan to start supporting more often (in post-coronavirus times), so the money I spend in the local economy can have a direct impact on the communities that need it.

[ChetlovesMer]

25 minutes ago, krupa said:

I don't know if it's appropriate to say something to a client, but when my mother-in-law would say something like that, or just include the person's race when relating a story, my wife would ask her, "does the person's race matter in this story?"  (It never did.)  I don't think my wife really accomplished much because then my MIL would do the same thing but then follow it with "I know I'm not supposed to say that part" or something similar. 

Do you and I have the same Mother-in-law?

Actually, I think this goes back to a point @iacas made earlier in this thread. Calling that stuff out is much more common for people in that generation than for people in our generation and even less common for my son's generation. I like to think society as a whole is getting better. ... Having said that, I do think that although fewer and fewer folks behave and or think that way. The ones that still do seem to try to make up for it. I am often shocked at just how "dug in" some people are with their ideas. 

[saevel25]

37 minutes ago, Darkfrog said:

The school where my daughter goes to kindergarten raises close to $500k annually. It is a night and day difference. So in some sense, our decision to not attend the local school is part of the problem, but also, we want the best possible education that we can provide for our kids. We are not poor, but we bought our home before the neighborhood became so expensive (we would be priced out if we wanted to live here now), and we can't afford to send our kids to private school. This is just one thing that I feel we need to change to bring equality to everyone.

I do not think anyone should feel shameful for sending their kids to the best school they can afford. The issue is the lack of funding for schools who have to scrape by. I understand that means the student will have less diversity in their education, but I think people can promote diversity in other ways. The evidence is staggering how much funding and resources matter to a persons education. 

Education and Socioeconomic Status Factsheet

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The impact of socioeconomic status on educational outcomes and reducing slow academic skills development, low literacy, chronic stress and...

Just the fact that children from low social economical status are 5-years behind in literacy than those from high-income students is crazy. This has to do with school funding and also the parents may be not as literate. So, when the kid grows up they are hearing less words being used and maybe not told to read as much as they should. 

[Darkfrog]

29 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

I do not think anyone should feel shameful for sending their kids to the best school they can afford. The issue is the lack of funding for schools who have to scrape by.

I feel good that we are giving our kids the best education possible. I guess my guilt/shame comes from my previous idealistic views, that we would buy into the public education system and as our neighborhood started to become more affluent, the local schools would improve with the influx of money, and that would benefit all the kids who go to the school. When we bought the house we knew the schools were bad (pretty much all of the Oakland public school district is under performing), but since we didn't have kids it wasn't a priority. We were happy to have bought a house close to our families, convenient to public transit which we needed for commute, and lots of good restaurants/entertainment nearby. But now the funding discrepancy among public schools in affluent vs. non-affluent communities really stands out, and it just feels like a cycle that is nearly impossible to break without serious intervention.

36 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

Just the fact that children from low social economical status are 5-years behind in literacy than those from high-income students is crazy.

This is very true. My mom volunteers in a reading program for underprivileged kids where the concept is just to spend an hour with a kid and read to them. Most of these kids' parents aren't native english speakers, or are native english speakers with very low literacy, and there are some kids getting close to middle school who are reading at kindergarten/1st grade levels. I wouldn't be surprised if many of these kids were ever read to consistently, although there are a lot of efforts to educate people on the importance reading to your kids, so hopefully it is getting better.

[mdl]

On 6/6/2020 at 8:22 PM, iacas said:

No, it isn't.

It's social. It's human.

And what I'm asking of people is to leave the politics to the side of it. You can be Republican, Democrat, Libertarian, Marxist, whatever… and side with BLM and see value in changing this piece of the world, or the U.S.

And I don't know what your "heavy handed" and "this demographic" means. Many people, even long-time members, seem to be completely unaware that we have a moderating team here at TST.

I love you Erik. I've been a dedicated member here for a decade. But you're factually wrong. The modern American police force evolved from elites organizing forces to crush the working class and to keep down the slaves

The History Of Policing In The United States, Part 1 | Police Studies Online | Eastern Kentucky University

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Learn about the history and development of policing and law enforcement in the United States.

Policing is a political act by elites to maintain their wealth and power and repress those who might threaten it. Of course there are interlinking social tides, but it's simply false to pretend this is anything but a political issue.

[saevel25]

2 minutes ago, mdl said:

Policing is a political act by elites to maintain their wealth and power and repress those who might threaten it. Of course there are interlinking social tides, but it's simply false to pretend this is anything but a political issue.

I think when he says keep politics out of it, it is more that we need to keep the polarization out of it by those who just want to be tribal in their political stance. 

Of course this is related to politics, how things have been governed in this nation has lead us up to this point. Yet, we can have a non-political discussion about how we should be self examining ourselves in this point in history and how we should move forward ourselves. If we keep shipping off responsibility into the realm of politics then nothing will ever change. 

[No Mulligans]

I've recently been verbally assaulted by a black man, I was flabbergasted as I had no interaction with him other than to walk into a parking lot about 100 feet from him.  Perhaps it was simple because I'm white.
When I was 17 (I'm now 62) I was hit with in the side of my head when I was walking by two black men (the Dr. thought it was probably a steel pipe)..  No interaction again and no eye contact.  Left on the ground, unconscious, with a concussion, and a broken bone on the side of my face.  Nothing was stolen, just a random act of violence.

Just the fact that I mention that those two incidents were done by a black man makes me racist to a degree. Right?  Is there any relevance in my story that they were black, I think so.  I believe my racism comes from fear and experience though it's not overt.  It is probably rational.  I call out others that make racist comments.  My racism is on a subconscious level.

 

 

Edited June 8, 2020 by No Mulligans

[Double Mocha Man]

16 minutes ago, mdl said:

Policing is a political act by elites to maintain their wealth and power and repress those who might threaten it. 

Matt... I know where you're going with this but it's a bit extreme.  There are so many nuances.  I don't think you have to be a member of the elite to want to be able to request the police for help. 

I live in a nice neighborhood and have a nice home... if somebody wants to come and take it from me I might want a little police intervention... keeping what's legally mine, mine.

I live in a seedy area of town and have a car I live in... if somebody wants to come and take it from me I might want a little police intervention... keeping what's legally mine, mine.

So Matt, the next time you're experiencing a home invasion don't call the police, call your nearest social justice philosopher.

Your quote... "Policing is a political act by elites to maintain their wealth and power and repress those who might threaten it."

Let me re-write that for you:

"Policing is a protective act by elites, mainstream citizens and the poor to maintain their ownership of property and protection of self and those who might threaten it."

Now, the "ownership" of property is an interesting concept and probably better left for another discussion."

Just don't take my damn golf clubs!

 

[iacas]

51 minutes ago, mdl said:

I love you Erik. I've been a dedicated member here for a decade. But you're factually wrong.

I can't be wrong about something I didn't say.

I am not talking about the history of policing dating back centuries.

51 minutes ago, mdl said:

The modern American police force evolved from elites organizing forces to crush the working class and to keep down the slaves

Again, I'm not talking about — and never have — the history.

Beyond that… I side with what @saevel25 said:

45 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

I think when he says keep politics out of it, it is more that we need to keep the polarization out of it by those who just want to be tribal in their political stance. 

Of course this is related to politics, how things have been governed in this nation has lead us up to this point. Yet, we can have a non-political discussion about how we should be self examining ourselves in this point in history and how we should move forward ourselves. If we keep shipping off responsibility into the realm of politics then nothing will ever change. 

Yes, this.

Your comment is meta, @mdl, and doesn't seem to further the discussion. If you don't want to participate because you think it's "political," or whatever… then don't. But there are many, many things I consider non-political — and which our moderators will consider non-political — to discuss here.

This topic exists for people to share comments, within the framework established in the OP. Share what you want, but no politics, be nice to each other, have an open mind, stick to the topic, etc.

[mdl]

1 hour ago, saevel25 said:

I think when he says keep politics out of it, it is more that we need to keep the polarization out of it by those who just want to be tribal in their political stance. 

Of course this is related to politics, how things have been governed in this nation has lead us up to this point. Yet, we can have a non-political discussion about how we should be self examining ourselves in this point in history and how we should move forward ourselves. If we keep shipping off responsibility into the realm of politics then nothing will ever change. 

I partially agree. For white folks, sure, this is a time to self reflect. To stop blocking out most of our history. And what we have gained and continue to gain from it.

But politics isn't shipping things off. I'd much rather folks say the n-word 100x a day but vote into city council reps who eliminate the police and totally reimagine public service and public safety, rather than preen about their social justice beliefs while voting for folks who will keep poor and brown folks oppressed and out of their neighborhoods.

41 minutes ago, Double Mocha Man said:

Matt... I know where you're going with this but it's a bit extreme.  There are so many nuances.  I don't think you have to be a member of the elite to want to be able to request the police for help. 

I live in a nice neighborhood and have a nice home... if somebody wants to come and take it from me I might want a little police intervention... keeping what's legally mine, mine.

I live in a seedy area of town and have a car I live in... if somebody wants to come and take it from me I might want a little police intervention... keeping what's legally mine, mine.

So Matt, the next time you're experiencing a home invasion don't call the police, call your nearest social justice philosopher.

Your quote... "Policing is a political act by elites to maintain their wealth and power and repress those who might threaten it."

Let me re-write that for you:

"Policing is a protective act by elites, mainstream citizens and the poor to maintain their ownership of property and protection of self and those who might threaten it."

Now, the "ownership" of property is an interesting concept and probably better left for another discussion."

Just don't take my damn golf clubs!

 

To quote Erik, you're responding to something I didn't say. The vast majority of emergency response is medical, or nuisance complaints about homeless or minorities, or other things for which armed response is a ridiculous one. No one ever said we don't need an armed emergency response force for a modern society. I'm saying that the "emergency response" we have currently is for repressing people, not protecting rights or society.

Edited June 9, 2020 by mdl

[saevel25]

9 minutes ago, mdl said:

I partially agree. For white folks, sure, this is a time to self reflect. To stop blocking out most of our history. And what we have gained and continue to gain from it.

I think for Black folks its also time to self reflect. Especially for those who hold a chip on their shoulder, who would be less receptive to White folks who are finally being honest and open. Coming together requires it be a two way street. Blacks can't assume it should be the Whites who do all the work. Work on both sides need to be done. Given, Whites finally need to start actually doing some work. 

12 minutes ago, mdl said:

I'm saying that the "emergency response" we have currently is for repressing people, not protecting rights or society.

I would say going on to discuss this would be off-topic. So, I will not respond to my views on what needs to be done with fixing the police. I believe this thread isn't about that. 

[mdl]

6 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

I would say going on to discuss this would be off-topic. So, I will not respond to my views on what needs to be done with fixing the police. I believe this thread isn't about that. 

I disagree, but don't deny folks here aren't ready to acknowledge that this is the same topic.

How racist policing took over American cities, explained by a historian

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"The problem is the way policing was built," historian Khalil Muhammad says.

 

[iacas]

In the interest of trying to see as many sides and viewpoints of this as possible, I watched this last night.

No comment on it, except to post it if others wish to watch.

[saevel25]

11 minutes ago, iacas said:

In the interest of trying to see as many sides and viewpoints of this as possible, I watched this last night.

I've had a love hate relationship with his videos. This one I found very compelling and well done. 

[chspeed]

21 minutes ago, iacas said:

In the interest of trying to see as many sides and viewpoints of this as possible, I watched this last night.

No comment on it, except to post it if others wish to watch.

"Manic bigot and his one Black Friend". Hahahah

[dennyjones]

2 hours ago, saevel25 said:

I've had a love hate relationship with his videos. This one I found very compelling and well done. 

I completely agree

[saevel25]

A couple of podcasts I’ve listened to.

‎Ten Percent Happier with Dan Harris: #254: White People Talking About Whiteness | Eleanor Hancock on Apple Podcasts

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‎Show Ten Percent Happier with Dan Harris, Ep #254: White People Talking About Whiteness |...

‎Ten Percent Happier with Dan Harris: #253: An Uncomfortable (But Meaningful) Conversation About Race | Lama Rod Owens on Apple Podcasts

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‎Show Ten Percent Happier with Dan Harris, Ep #253: An Uncomfortable (But Meaningful)...