Opponent Did Not Know Stroke and Distance Rule

[ChetlovesMer]

Okay, I'm playing in a city league this year, and actually really enjoying it. 

Then last night I came across an interesting issue. 

Shotgun start, we tee off on the par 5, 6th hole. The guys my partner and I are playing with seem like perfectly fine gentlemen. The first guy (the guy my partner is playing against) hooks the bejesus out of his drive Out of Bounds Left. The rest of us tee off without incident. 

Suddenly, everyone's walking back to the carts.

"Hey, don't you want to hit another?" I say.

"No, I'm just going to drop up there and take a stroke." The guy says. 

"Uh, maybe you can't tell but that's white staked O.B." I say. (I said that, but it's clear as can be that there are white stakes lining the left side of that hole.) 

"Yeah, I know, I'm just going to drop up where it went out and take a stroke." He repeats. 

I tried to explain the stroke plus distance thing for O.B. and he's looking at me like I'm from another planet. I spent a couple of minutes trying to explain, but I quit because it felt like to push it further was going to get heated. Anyway, the guy proceeded to drop and then hook a 3-wood out of bounds on the left as well. So, he went up and dropped where it crossed the O.B. again. It was match play and the guy carded a 10 on the hole. (Should have been more, technically) But since my partner won the hole easily I let it go. 

So, my question is. How do you play golf for at least 10 or 15 years (which is at least how long this guy had been playing) and not know that O.B. is stroke plus distance????? 

We also play off handicaps in this league. So, I also wondered how accurate his handicap is.... although in truth it's only screwing himself in that regard, because if anything his handicap should probably be higher. 

[PJ Clark]

New rule for 2020.

[Darkfrog]

13 minutes ago, ChetlovesMer said:

So, my question is. How do you play golf for at least 10 or 15 years (which is at least how long this guy had been playing) and not know that O.B. is stroke plus distance????? 

In my experience, golfers not knowing this rule (or just The Rules) is pretty common. I'm a little surprised that a player in a competitive league playing under the RoG wouldn't be aware though. I actually didn't fully understand this particular rule until about 4-5 years ago when I started playing golf much more regularly after almost 15 year break.

[dagolfer18]

I understand where he’s coming from. ‘Drop and take a stroke’ is a rule that I’m sure a lot of players play in casual rounds (I did too for a while), but in reality it’s stroke and distance. Now, if I’m not mistaken, there’s a new rule that says you can play from where it went in, but you’re hitting your fourth shot instead of your third, as he was thinking.

In my personal experience, to avoid situations like this, I just hit a provisional ball if I have any doubt whatsoever that the ball’s out of play.

[Shorty]

8 minutes ago, PJ Clark said:

New rule for 2020.

NO  -  you do not drop and "take  a stroke". If the LOCAL RULE is enacted you drop and play 4. Stroke and distance.

[PJ Clark]

I didn't say "drop and take a stroke." I said the rule changed in 2020. I figured he would google the rule.

Cheers

[Shorty]

4 minutes ago, PJ Clark said:

I didn't say "drop and take a stroke." I said the rule changed in 2020. I figured he would google the rule.

Cheers

You said the rule changed in 2020. Which has nothing to do with what the player did. The way you wrote your response implies that the player was OK and the original poster wasn't up to date. Best not to make us guess what you mean.

[PJ Clark]

Actually, drop and take a stroke is correct--as long as you add "distance."

Cheers

[billchao]

29 minutes ago, ChetlovesMer said:

I tried to explain the stroke plus distance thing for O.B. and he's looking at me like I'm from another planet.

Does your league allow the model Local Rule for stroke and distance, and did you explain to him that it’s a two-stroke penalty?

2 minutes ago, PJ Clark said:

I didn't say "drop and take a stroke." I said the rule changed in 2020. I figured he would google the rule.

Cheers

There’s no such rule change to stroke and distance procedure in 2020.

The Local Rule alternative is not in effect unless the committee introduces it.

https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules-hub/rules-modernization/major-changes/golfs-new-rules-stroke-and-distance.html

[Shorty]

18 minutes ago, PJ Clark said:

Actually, drop and take a stroke is correct--as long as you add "distance."

Cheers

In trying to simplify something by typing as few words as possible in each of your posts you are making something that is pretty simple very complicated. There is an actual local rule that can be enacted by the club. None of what you say is correct.

Edited May 13, 2021 by Shorty

[PJ Clark]

"trying to simplifying?" Not correct.

[ChetlovesMer]

9 minutes ago, billchao said:

Does your league allow the model Local Rule for stroke and distance, and did you explain to him that it’s a two-stroke penalty?

Nope, as a matter of fact, we are handed a sheet of paper with rules on it before each round. It specifically mentioned the rule as well as that particular hole. "Stroke plus Distance" is very clearly called out. 

Additionally, I would have been totally cool with "I'm going to hit a provisional, just in case by some miracle my ball is actually not out of bounds." Even though we all clearly saw it go way TF out of bounds. 

30 minutes ago, Darkfrog said:

In my experience, golfers not knowing this rule (or just The Rules) is pretty common. I'm a little surprised that a player in a competitive league playing under the RoG wouldn't be aware though. I actually didn't fully understand this particular rule until about 4-5 years ago when I started playing golf much more regularly after almost 15 year break.

Wow, that's interesting. One of the very first things I was taught while learning to golf was if you have the choice between OB left and hazard right, favor the hazard. 

[Shorty]

8 minutes ago, PJ Clark said:

"trying to simplifying?" Not correct.

What is your reason for being here? This thread is about discussing a specific rule and attitudes about rules.

Your initial responses and the one I quoted (an obvious typo I have since corrected) indicate that you are looking to make some sort of point without expressing what it is. You are incorrect about the ruling, clearly do not understand it, yet you want to muddy the waters so that others who may want to have it clarified end up knowing less than they did before you posted.

Your first post in this thread is the equivalent of someone in Youtube saying "fake" (and nothing else) when an interesting and real event is presented to them.

[Darkfrog]

5 minutes ago, ChetlovesMer said:

Wow, that's interesting. One of the very first things I was taught while learning to golf was if you have the choice between OB left and hazard right, favor the hazard. 

Probably explained by my introduction to golf.  When I started playing golf 20+ years ago, it was with my college roommates, one of who was an excellent golfer (probably near scratch). Since he grew up living on a course and playing golf, I assume he knew the rules and followed them. But the rest of us hackers had no idea about the rules, and just kind of did what we felt was correct, and since we were not playing with handicaps or with any wagers, it didn't really matter.

It wasn't until I started keeping a handicap and played in my first competition that I really tried to get more familiar with the rules.

It's pretty common in my weekend rounds to see players hit a ball into the forest (lost ball), or off the course (OB), and drop for a 1-stroke penalty. If I have any doubts I usually hit a provisional, but sometimes I use the drop +2 local rule.

[saevel25]

3 minutes ago, Shorty said:

What is your reason for being here? This thread is about discussing a specific rule and attitudes about rules.

Don't feed the trolls. 😛 

1 hour ago, ChetlovesMer said:

So, my question is. How do you play golf for at least 10 or 15 years (which is at least how long this guy had been playing) and not know that O.B. is stroke plus distance????? 

If they play a casual league for 15 years, it is understandable. 

Also, I would wait for them to finish the hole, then get them DQ'd. I would be concerned if you let him continue on, you have now agreed to allow him to play not by the rules of golf...

Quote

b. Applying the Rules

(1) Player Responsibility for Applying the Rules. Players are responsible for applying the Rules to themselves:

• Players are expected to recognize when they have breached a Rule and to be honest in applying their own penalties.

  • If a player knows that he or she has breached a Rule that involves a penalty and deliberately fails to apply the penalty, the player is disqualified.

  • If two or more players deliberately agree to ignore any Rule or penalty they know applies and any of those players have started the round, they are disqualified (even if they have not yet acted on the agreement).

• When it is necessary to decide questions of fact, a player is responsible for considering not only his or her own knowledge of the facts but also all other information that is reasonably available.

• A player may ask for help with the Rules from a referee or the Committee, but if help is not available in a reasonable time the player must play on and raise the issue with a referee or the Committee when they become available (see Rule 20.1).

 

[Club Rat]

I typically do not encourage disputing rules while playing stroke play, but rather address the situation and indicate it will be determined 
by the golf pro or whoever is assigned to be the rules official at the of the round.
But, I believe in Match Play, when a situation comes up, it most be resolved before the players tee off on the next hole.

If not as mentioned by @saevel25 the match would be over by means of DQ.
Since it's a casual league and not to make waves or piss players off, I would discuss the circumstances with the players and the pro after the round. Then if the pro wants to uphold the rule and DQ the Match, so be it.

[Rulesman]

13 minutes ago, Club Rat said:

I typically do not encourage disputing rules while playing stroke play, but rather address the situation and indicate it will be determined 
by the golf pro or whoever is assigned to be the rules official at the of the round.
But, I believe in Match Play, when a situation comes up, it most be resolved before the players tee off on the next hole.

If not as mentioned by @saevel25 the match would be over by means of DQ.
Since it's a casual league and not to make waves or piss players off, I would discuss the circumstances with the players and the pro after the round. Then if the pro wants to uphold the rule and DQ the Match, so be it.

If there is a rule dispute in match play the offended player must make a claim before the next hole is started. That must then be taken to the Committee on completion of the match.

In this case the offending player would have been DQd as it would have been a serious breach but not his partner.

Edited May 13, 2021 by Rulesman

[ChetlovesMer]

38 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

I would be concerned if you let him continue on, you have now agreed to allow him to play not by the rules of golf...

 

This is a point I didn't even consider. 

Wow, shame on me.