Relax the Hands

[Carl3]

On 11/13/2022 at 1:49 PM, Double Mocha Man said:

You didn't learn that at CPS.

He might have. Talked his way out of a few fights?🤣

[ChetlovesMer]

39 minutes ago, Carl3 said:

He might have. Talked his way out of a few fights?🤣

More than a few, brother. 

When you spend most of your life with your brain on rewind and your mouth on fast-forward you have to either learn to talk fast or run fast.... and I can't run for sh!t. 

[iacas]

Not the topic fellas.

At least throw the topic a bone before adding the off-topic banter.

[ChetlovesMer]

7 minutes ago, iacas said:

Not the topic fellas.

At least throw the topic a bone before adding the off-topic banter.

Sorry.

I will say before this thread I never really gave much thought to how hard I grip or don't grip the club. 

I've spent a lot of time on hand position. Never really stopping to think about "squeeze-force". 

Next time I hit balls I will make an effort to at least think about it. 

BTW - if it catches on, I'd like to trademark the term "squeeze-force". 

[boogielicious]

For me, if I don’t grip the club in my fingers with sufficient force to start, it can slip a bit into my palm and cause all sorts of issues. One way I tell if the grip is right is to squeeze and release a bit and see if the clubface opens and closes. It shouldn’t move from my initial grip pressure.

A good drill for feel is to grip the club very tight and swing back and forth relaxing the wrists. This is similar to what @phillyk and @iacas are talking about. We grip tighter than we think. Perhaps the OP was mistaking relaxed wrists for fingers.

[iacas]

@Wade Patton, curious to hear your thoughts on this:

SuperSpeed Squeeze

---

The best players in the world can create significantly more grip strength than amateur golfers. This allows these players to not only create more speed, but also improves their ability to control the golf club, create lag...

The best players in the world can create significantly more grip strength than amateur golfers. This allows these players to not only create more speed, but also improves their ability to control the golf club, create lag, stabilize the club face, and deal with lies in the rough. More grip strength allows you to use less grip pressure compared to your maximum capacity. This creates less tension and the ability to optimize the use of your hands and arms in the golf swing. The bottom line is that if you want to grip and control the club like a tour player, you need more grip strength. 

Now, with the introduction of the SuperSpeed Squeeze, you can easily improve your grip strength leading to more control, consistency, and speed. The SuperSpeed Squeeze is easy to use fitting over the grip on your own golf club. Follow our simple and effective training protocol to see huge gains in grip strength in as little as 4 weeks of regular training.

[ChetlovesMer]

On 11/14/2022 at 3:25 PM, ChetlovesMer said:

Sorry.

I will say before this thread I never really gave much thought to how hard I grip or don't grip the club. 

I've spent a lot of time on hand position. Never really stopping to think about "squeeze-force". 

Next time I hit balls I will make an effort to at least think about it. 

BTW - if it catches on, I'd like to trademark the term "squeeze-force". 

Okay, as I stated earlier in this thread. I have never given any thought at all as to how hard to squeeze the grip. So, today at the range I tried experimenting with it. 

For me, it all seemed kind of pointless. 

If I tried to grip it lightly, it seemed like my hands would naturally grip it tighter when I swung the club in order to get to about the right amount of grip. If I tried to grip it really tightly my hands seemed to loosen up as I swung the club in order to get to about the right grip pressure. 

Basically what I'm saying is my grip pressure kind of seemed to work itself out. It king of just happened. I've spent time working on my grip, but by that I mean getting the hand placement right. i.e. how strong or weak, or how many knuckles I can see etc... Grip pressure just kind of happens. 

Is this a question in other sports? 
Do baseball players think about how hard to squeeze the bat?
Do tennis players think about how hard to squeeze the racket? 
I ask because I literally don't know. I've played softball, baseball and tennis casually. Never having any more coaching than little league, but I can't imagine that people in baseball are like "How hard should I squeeze the bat?"  ... Maybe I'm wrong. 

I guess maybe I should spend more time thinking about how hard to "squeeze" the grip. But I don't. Perhaps that's because I have so much other stuff in my swing that I'm working on? 

So, is how hard to squeeze the grip a starting point that I somehow missed when I began? Or, is how hard to squeeze the grip a finishing touch on a great swing that I've yet to achieve? 

I'm not trying to come off as a jerk. But to me it seems as simple as squeeze the grip as hard as it takes to swing the club.  

I mean it would seem that if you have stronger hands that's better. But other than that.... What am I missing? 

[cedrictheo]

3 hours ago, iacas said:

@Wade Patton, curious to hear your thoughts on this:

SuperSpeed Squeeze

---

The best players in the world can create significantly more grip strength than amateur...

The best players in the world can create significantly more grip strength than amateur golfers. This allows these players to not only create more speed, but also improves their ability to control the golf club, create lag, stabilize the club face, and deal with lies in the rough. More grip strength allows you to use less grip pressure compared to your maximum capacity. This creates less tension and the ability to optimize the use of your hands and arms in the golf swing. The bottom line is that if you want to grip and control the club like a tour player, you need more grip strength. 

Now, with the introduction of the SuperSpeed Squeeze, you can easily improve your grip strength leading to more control, consistency, and speed. The SuperSpeed Squeeze is easy to use fitting over the grip on your own golf club. Follow our simple and effective training protocol to see huge gains in grip strength in as little as 4 weeks of regular training.

Pre-ordered. Have small weak hands. Hopeful this protocol will help.

[bking]

1 hour ago, ChetlovesMer said:

but I can't imagine that people in baseball are like "How hard should I squeeze the bat?"  ... Maybe I'm wrong. 

Yes, but  golf is without a doubt THE MOST analyzed sport/activity out there when it comes to amateurs and their own games.

[iacas]

2 hours ago, ChetlovesMer said:

Okay, as I stated earlier in this thread. I have never given any thought at all as to how hard to squeeze the grip. So, today at the range I tried experimenting with it. 

For me, it all seemed kind of pointless. 

If I tried to grip it lightly, it seemed like my hands would naturally grip it tighter when I swung the club in order to get to about the right amount of grip. If I tried to grip it really tightly my hands seemed to loosen up as I swung the club in order to get to about the right grip pressure. 

Basically what I'm saying is my grip pressure kind of seemed to work itself out. It king of just happened. I've spent time working on my grip, but by that I mean getting the hand placement right. i.e. how strong or weak, or how many knuckles I can see etc... Grip pressure just kind of happens. 

Is this a question in other sports? 
Do baseball players think about how hard to squeeze the bat?
Do tennis players think about how hard to squeeze the racket? 
I ask because I literally don't know. I've played softball, baseball and tennis casually. Never having any more coaching than little league, but I can't imagine that people in baseball are like "How hard should I squeeze the bat?"  ... Maybe I'm wrong. 

I guess maybe I should spend more time thinking about how hard to "squeeze" the grip. But I don't. Perhaps that's because I have so much other stuff in my swing that I'm working on? 

So, is how hard to squeeze the grip a starting point that I somehow missed when I began? Or, is how hard to squeeze the grip a finishing touch on a great swing that I've yet to achieve? 

I'm not trying to come off as a jerk. But to me it seems as simple as squeeze the grip as hard as it takes to swing the club.  

I mean it would seem that if you have stronger hands that's better. But other than that.... What am I missing? 

You're not accounting for two things, though:

1. Changing grip pressure throughout the swing is likely not great.
2. If you grip it loosely, you could be telling your body not to swing too fast, because you're not holding it tightly enough to swing fast.

[Double Mocha Man]

2 hours ago, ChetlovesMer said:

Okay, as I stated earlier in this thread. I have never given any thought at all as to how hard to squeeze the grip. So, today at the range I tried experimenting with it. 

For me, it all seemed kind of pointless. 

If I tried to grip it lightly, it seemed like my hands would naturally grip it tighter when I swung the club in order to get to about the right amount of grip. If I tried to grip it really tightly my hands seemed to loosen up as I swung the club in order to get to about the right grip pressure. 

Basically what I'm saying is my grip pressure kind of seemed to work itself out. It king of just happened. I've spent time working on my grip, but by that I mean getting the hand placement right. i.e. how strong or weak, or how many knuckles I can see etc... Grip pressure just kind of happens. 

Is this a question in other sports? 
Do baseball players think about how hard to squeeze the bat?
Do tennis players think about how hard to squeeze the racket? 
I ask because I literally don't know. I've played softball, baseball and tennis casually. Never having any more coaching than little league, but I can't imagine that people in baseball are like "How hard should I squeeze the bat?"  ... Maybe I'm wrong. 

I guess maybe I should spend more time thinking about how hard to "squeeze" the grip. But I don't. Perhaps that's because I have so much other stuff in my swing that I'm working on? 

So, is how hard to squeeze the grip a starting point that I somehow missed when I began? Or, is how hard to squeeze the grip a finishing touch on a great swing that I've yet to achieve? 

I'm not trying to come off as a jerk. But to me it seems as simple as squeeze the grip as hard as it takes to swing the club.  

I mean it would seem that if you have stronger hands that's better. But other than that.... What am I missing? 

Of course, we all know Sam Snead said to hold the grip as if you were holding a baby bird.  Perhaps in today's lexicon it's hold the grip as if you are holding the jaws of an alligator closed. I don't know.  To be honest, I'm like you Chet, I don't really think about it.

[iacas]

34 minutes ago, Double Mocha Man said:

Of course, we all know Sam Snead said to hold the grip as if you were holding a baby bird.

This was addressed.

On 1/3/2012 at 4:12 AM, iacas said:

Sam Snead famously quipped that to grip the club with the proper amount of pressure, one should feel as if they're holding onto a baby bird: grip the club firmly enough that it can't fly away, but not so firmly that you crush the thing.

Less famously, Ben Hogan said "what Sam Snead didn't tell you is that the baby bird is a hawk."

[ChetlovesMer]

1 hour ago, iacas said:

You're not accounting for two things, though:

1. Changing grip pressure throughout the swing is likely not great.
2. If you grip it loosely, you could be telling your body not to swing too fast, because you're not holding it tightly enough to swing fast.

I don't disagree with you at all.

I think when it comes to grip pressure what I've discovered is that I'm not accounting for lots of things. 

My point is I don't think about it at all. Even when I try to think about it, I don't think about it. 

2 hours ago, bking said:

Yes, but  golf is without a doubt THE MOST analyzed sport/activity out there when it comes to amateurs and their own games.

You are probably right. 

[dennyjones]

My first instructor had me grip the club at waist height and said hold on to pretty good.   He then tried to pull the club out of my hand and said the grip strength should be strong enough that someone cannot pull the club out of your hands.  Other than that, I've never give grip strength a thought.

Added:

I've got a grip aid sitting here at my computer that I use each night.

Edited December 2, 2022 by dennyjones

[iacas]

@Wade Patton, any thoughts?

[GolfLug]

Bit late to the topic. In my experience grip/hands has/have to be at least firmer than forearm tension.

My thought has always been 'snug'. Not rigid for sure and definitely not loose. I think people interprete loose as having as less pressure points as possible on the grip. That is a recipe for letting the club dangle around in the hands for a larger portion of the swing and then overcompensating at impact just to keep it from flying off the hands. I don't think much good happens then.

[Wade Patton]

On 12/30/2022 at 6:44 PM, iacas said:

@Wade Patton, any thoughts?

None. Sorry.

Okay I've come back around to see what all the fuss is about. I apologize for getting "testy" before, but I wasn't expecting so many opposing views and being effectively chastised for not "listening to" or "respecting" the instructor member(s) here.

As I restated before I wasn't looking for instruction. I play by feel and performance, and have my instructors. I was looking to see who else had felt the restrictions/freedom created by excess tension in our gripping. Thought I had found one.

And then someone comes along questioning my level of game, so here's to that:  I have no index posted because I haven't posted any scores in dozens of years. I started when I was 14-15 years old (and miles from any course). I was playing with my dad and his friends, and quickly got good enough to beat most of them (enthusiastic duffers). My handicap was 16 (pre-index system) when I was 16 and I only played a handful of years after that. I played in a few tournaments and lots of scrambles, one day I beat a 4 handicap at a tough course in FL.

Then life happened and I didn't play golf for 30-ish years. I just started back swinging a club in May of last year.  I'm just now getting my swing back after a "false start" five years ago. It has been a little bit of roller coaster, but I'm on the fast track now. Last outing was great, it included only one birdie*, but nothing worse than a bogey, and plenty of pars). I practice way way more than I play.

I've always practices a lot more than I play because I only play tour-blade type irons and they don't allow a lot of goofing off. I've collected eight more sets of those to go with my original Wilsons that I was swinging back when. I'm absolutely doting over my Palmer Standard 85's now. Such lookers and so many tight shots on Friday, I'll be swinging them for a while yet.

Folks can decide for themselves if Manuel de la Torre's concepts and swing are "outdated".  I think they are perfect and should yet be taught.  I don't see anything (not really looking) that tech has revealed that changes how a body swings a clubhead through a ball and launches it toward the target.

We've got folks copying Moe Norman's technique now even--and I get that, because it worked so well for Mr. Norman. But it still looks really odd to me when I see folks using that setup and swing.  Moe owned it. I don't see that level of development in the few I've watched attempting to own it. But they hit some nice shots. And that's all fine with me-it starts with a different grip and I'm not going there.  I like my grip.

I yet hold to the notion of the dynamic variations on grip tension, different for everyone, just as de la Torre explains and illustrates in the old clinic.

My swing is simpler, easier, and I don't think about grip or grip pressures any more.  They're just natural-and always sufficient to retain possession of the club at every level of force with which I swing my clubs. As Manuel points out grip pressure is different for everyone but it's not something we have to think about--just like we don't have to think about positions and what body parts are doing what in order to swing a golf club effectively and consistently.

Old hard grips will naturally cause one to use more pressure if his/her swing is fast enough, just to hang on to the club. How much more?  I don't know but grip pressure engages the forearms and if you over-engage them the free dynamics of a golf swing are no longer free.  They're restrained a little bit-the feel changes and motion is inhibited. Which motions depends on the individual and how his/her hands grip the club.  I imagine many if not most folks these days haven't played with old hard grips, but I have-and way too much. In my view this is detrimental to a free swing.

I've regripped three sets now and have a couple more old sets with fresh grips. This makes it quite easy to use "proper" grip pressure as I understand and practice it. It's they perfect amount that retains the club at every speed and never inhibits the freedom of the hands and forearms to do their natural job in returning the clubface through address position at full song.

I should have/could have started my own thread when I originally replied to this one, but I had searched up a relevant thread and just jumped in all ignorant of new tech and info that still seems irrelevant to what I want to do. I'm doing what I want to do and loving it.  I'm not thinking about how to swing anymore, only about where the shot needs to go.

And I'm actually going to get some hickories and give them a try. Seems like a lot of folks are having fun with those. I prefer doting over clubs rather than dissecting swings.

Anyhoots.  Y'all go right on and grip it any way you want to. I had a short period of over-gripping and it was not helpful for me. My grip is now balanced and dynamic and naturally responsive to the centrifugal forces generated by the effort I put into each swing. It just works. Experimenting with pressure and hearing "my" instructor as well as many great players speak to the finesse of the grip is how I got there.  I'm not copying anyone because we are all slightly different, yet much the same. I've hit thousands of shots since my original posts in this thread and there's simply no questions or thoughts needed for my grip at this point. I hope everyone finds his/her perfect grip engagement level. It will be dynamic by the nature of our form, and it's not complicated.
HNY!

*The first half of my birdie on Friday, wind was 20mph gusting to 26 despite the limpness of the flag in this pic:


 

Edited January 1, 2023 by Wade Patton

[Wade Patton]

Here's what I tried to edit in above, but went over the time limit. It goes in the front.

None. Sorry.[edit] I have now glanced at it and here are my comments: Yes, one must grip with more force as dynamic forces increase-all a function of speed. That's exactly what I'm saying-that grip is dynamic according to the forces created by our swing. Swinging faster will always require more grip pressure, but that doesn't mean that my hands are weak.  I work with my hands, pretty sure they'll grip just as hard as I need for as fast as I'm going to swing. How fast that is I don't know and may never know.  When I feel my hands drive through as they used to--I get inconsistencies. When they only retain the club, I get much better and more consistent/accurate results.

Edited January 1, 2023 by Wade Patton