Student (College) Loans

[Double Mocha Man]

Saevel25, I am in agreement.  We already pay for K-12.   We should pay for the whole thing.  Just like paying for roads, military, dams, medicare, etc.  Otherwise we become a country of knuckle draggers.  And we will lose our place in the world order.  To have fewer college graduates will one day relegate us to something other than a First World country.

[Double Mocha Man]

Woodzie, you and I are not that far apart in irreconcilable differences.  I am in total agreement with you that people should be responsible for paying off their debt.  Personally, I always have.  And I instruct my son to pay his debts.

I guess our differences are in the terms of "luxury" and "entitled".  Our differences are in how an advanced education should be paid for.  I believe, as a country, we need to be all in and make an advanced education not a luxury nor something entitled.  It should be available to all those who want it.  As a nation we do not have the "luxury" of limiting (by debt or otherwise) who gets an advanced education.

[woodzie264]

Just now, Double Mocha Man said:

Woodzie, you and I are not that far apart in irreconcilable differences.  I am in total agreement with you that people should be responsible for paying off their debt.  Personally, I always have.  And I instruct my son to pay his debts.

I guess our differences are in the terms of "luxury" and "entitled".  Our differences are in how an advanced education should be paid for.  I believe, as a country, we need to be all in and make an advanced education not a luxury nor something entitled.  It should be available to all those who want it.  As a nation we do not have the "luxury" of limiting (by debt or otherwise) who gets an advanced education.

I appreciate that and I agree with you that it should be available to everyone who wants it. But I don’t feel I should have to pay for someone else by raising my taxes to make it happen.  I think it is available for everyone, I was poor like every other student, but I managed to pay my bills. The question was not should it be available, the question was should existing debts be forgiven. That’s where we differ. BUT, As @saevel25 suggested, I could be on board with those who can’t afford to pay their debts by repaying them with service related positions for a period of time. That’s a great solution for those people who can’t repay their debt.

[Double Mocha Man]

3 minutes ago, woodzie264 said:

The question was not should it be available, the question was should existing debts be forgiven.

I like the Australian solution that Shorty mentioned.  A deferment of college debt until you achieve a certain threshold of income.

So this has been a hot topic!  😁

[Zippo]

1 hour ago, Double Mocha Man said:

Saevel25, I am in agreement.  We already pay for K-12.   We should pay for the whole thing.  Just like paying for roads, military, dams, medicare, etc.  Otherwise we become a country of knuckle draggers.  And we will lose our place in the world order.  To have fewer college graduates will one day relegate us to something other than a First World country.

You have my vote.

[GolfLug]

Wipe out college loans altogether? Yeah, no. Create a program to subsidize  or graduate repayment based on income level for those that are completely buried as I do believe some relief is in order since bankruptcy doesn't relieve you of student loans.

On this note what I always thought was asinine is letting 18-19 year olds with take on huge loans they can't back or job market data does not support. Where are the adults? Bit predatory IMO. Overpriced education is meme for a reason. $200k for a 4-year degree? WTF??

Go to state and community colleges. Patronize them. They are much better value in majority cases. We will be a much better and educated country for not blind-worshipping Ivy ed. My kids will go to colleges wife and I can support along with them taking on a reasonable chunk themselves. 

[Denny Bang Bang]

2 hours ago, saevel25 said:

Heck, if you want to even tie students loan debt forgiveness to certain jobs we need good people in (i.e. Police Officers, Fireman, EMS, National Guard), I would be OK with that concession.

 

2 hours ago, woodzie264 said:

I do like your idea of tying repayment of debt to service related position of Law Enforcement, the military, etc. I’d support that 100% as a repayment  method. 

To a certain extent, this already exists.  I believe military provides higher education benefits, and there are opportunities for partial repayment for many public service careers (I know several people have have taken advantage of these benefits and opportunities).

Many businesses also provide higher education benefits (some don’t require a commitment, some do).

 I support these opportunities.  However, I DON’T support being on the hook for someone who decided to major in interpretive dance theory or basket weaving.  Nor being on the hook for someone who did 6 years of undergrad to “get the college experience”.

[ChetlovesMer]

21 hours ago, iacas said:

My college was about 50% Natalie's cost. An order of magnitude would be crazy. I don't think that rule of thumb holds up. 10x over 20-25 years? That's so far out of whack I can't imagine it. Denison costs about $75,000 per year. No way it cost only $7500 in 1996. Allegheny almost as much, and no way did it cost < $7k 25 years ago.

It's gone up but I have no belief it's an order of magnitude.

Pretty close to exactly 10x over my generation is accurate. 

The first semester I went to Northern Illinois University the cost was $2200 per semester for tuition, room and board and fees. I just looked up that same University is now well over $24K per semester for tuition, room and board, and fees. Now in my particular case that's 30 years, not 20-25... cuz I'm an old dude. 

Because I had kids later than most folks. By time my kids go to college the 10x rule of thumb will more likely be a 15x rule of thumb. Hell, it could very possibly be 20x more expensive for them to go to the same university as me. 

22 hours ago, boogielicious said:

Sadly, a rule of thumb on tuition is an order of magnitude per generation. When I was a freshman at WPI, my roommate and I were paying $6000 tuition. His dad, who went to WPI, pay $600. Now it $60,000. And frankly, it’s not like the school is worth a 1000% more now. 

I really think this bubble will burst. Here's a quick tale of two brothers. I'll call them Joe and Jeff for this forum. (They are real people that I know well.) 

Jeff went to University for 3 years, changed majors and took 2 more years to graduate. Ended up with a degree in English. ... Not a teaching degree though. His brother, Joe, didn't know what he wanted to do, tried a few jobs for a while, ended up with an assembly line job, eventually got trained as a welder. 

Today, 15 years later, Joe's a welder. Jeff works as the manager of a Starbucks. 

Now the interesting part. Joe, as a welder, makes almost $200K per year. He has zero college debt. Jeff, makes whatever a Starbucks Manager makes, and still 15 years later has a bunch of remaining college debt. Both brothers are very happy and in truth doing fine. The point I'm making is that there are a lot of life paths that don't include college. Many of them are becoming more and more profitable. While a lot of paths that DO include college are becoming relatively less and less profitable. If you look purely at the dollars and cents college has become a terrible investment in many, possibly the majority of cases. 

I think there's a shake up coming. It's probably been coming for quite a while now. 

[iacas]

None of the charts you find will show 10x. Like this one:

It’s increasing fast but not 10x.

[Carl3]

25 minutes ago, iacas said:

It’s increasing fast but not 10x.

Here is what I have seen for Ohio public universities:

My sister started at The Ohio state University in 1979. About $331 per quarter for tuition or roughly $1,000 per year. Room and board was about equal to that so $2,000 per year total.

In  started at The Ohio state University in 1983. About $550 per quarter for tuition or roughly $1,500 per year. Room and board was about equal to that so $3,100 per year total.

I graduated from The Ohio state University in 1988. About $700 per quarter for tuition or roughly $2,000 per year. Room and board was about equal to that so $4,000 per year total.

So far it had doubled in a decade. Fast forward to 2012 when I had two children at The Ohio State University. Tuition was $10,000 per year and there was another $300 to $600 in fees depending on what college you were enrolled in. Liberal rats and sciences was on the low end and engineering was on the high end of the fees. R&B was roughly equal to that for a total of about $20,000.

So that is 10 times in 30 years. Here is what that looks like on a chart:

An interesting aside: I was in my senior year in 1987 and reading the college paper The Lantern where it indicated that the President Ed Jennings was earning $117,000 per year. I thought that this was a lot of money. I was looking at making $30,000 upon graduation. When my children were there in 2012, I think the president was making over $1M per year. So the presidents salary increased perhaps 10-fold in less than 30 years. 

 

[ChetlovesMer]

1 hour ago, iacas said:

None of the charts you find will show 10x. Like this one:

It’s increasing fast but not 10x.

You forgot room and board and "fees". 

Many Universities require you to stay in the dorms for the first year. Some require you to stay in the dorms for the first 2 years. (Mine did.) So, you had to pay room and board. 

This is a lot like how airlines publish their costs to fly. They don't include additional fees in the published price. 

Once again, my particular school in 1989-90 was $2200 per semester all in. This included tuition, room and board and "fees". 2020-21 is $24K per semester, tuition room and board and fees. 

When I went to school "fees" were literally $84.00. Today fees "what ever that means" are now about $3K. Fees are now more each semester than the total cost for tuition and room and board was when I attended. 

Edited December 6, 2021 by ChetlovesMer
punctuation

[iacas]

59 minutes ago, Carl3 said:

My sister started at The Ohio state University in 1979. About $331 per quarter for tuition or roughly $1,000 per year. Room and board was about equal to that so $2,000 per year total.

In  started at The Ohio state University in 1983. About $550 per quarter for tuition or roughly $1,500 per year. Room and board was about equal to that so $3,100 per year total.

Y'all need to stop quoting ONE college or university as your "proof" of a ten-fold increase in costs.

No chart anywhere bears this out.

1 minute ago, ChetlovesMer said:

You forgot room and board and "fees". 

No, I didn't. You're not getting to 10x. That chart shows a 10k to $26k increase in 34 years. So, 2.5x in significantly longer than a generation.

[ChetlovesMer]

12 hours ago, Double Mocha Man said:

Saevel25, I am in agreement.  We already pay for K-12.   We should pay for the whole thing.  Just like paying for roads, military, dams, medicare, etc.  Otherwise we become a country of knuckle draggers.  And we will lose our place in the world order.  To have fewer college graduates will one day relegate us to something other than a First World country.

I don't necessarily think the right answer is to just throw money at the problem. I agree that having more college graduates in your country is better than having fewer. Having said that, there certainly must be a more cost effective way of doing it. 

I find that people are always willing to argue about who should pay. What I'd like to see is for people to put that energy into cost reducing the process. 

I, you, anybody, should not have to pay for something that doesn't provide a return on your investment. 

[saevel25]

The Rising Cost of College in the U.S.

---

Since 1980, the average cost of college has risen by 1200%. This chart compares the inflation in college tuition with overall inflation.

Data from the Source: U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics - Consumer Price Index and 
U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics - Consumer Price Index for College Tuition & Fees

Tuition has increased 5x for public (on average), and 3.4x for private (on average). 

It has outpaced inflation cost (CPI) by 5.1x. 

I think public schools should have their tuition go up with inflation, or maybe max of 3-5% per year. Its tough to make a case that private tuition should be regulated like that. Though, I think there should be way more public schools. Like, there should be double or triple the amount of public colleges in each state. 

[ChetlovesMer]

In this chart all the dollars are converted to 2021 money. It shows how tuition is outpacing inflation.

When you take out the conversion of the dollars you get about 5x per generation for public school. 

and about 6.45x per generation for private school. 

So, the average is less than 10x for the aggregate. 

 

 

 

OH CRAP, Sorry @saevel25.

Basically what you said just a few seconds later. 

27 minutes ago, iacas said:

Y'all need to stop quoting ONE college or university as your "proof" of a ten-fold increase in costs.

Why?
There was a 10 fold increase at MY UNIVERSITY. 

I think pointing it out as an example of out of control price increases is perfectly relevant to the conversation. 

[saevel25]

5 minutes ago, ChetlovesMer said:

There was a 10 fold increase at MY UNIVERSITY. 

I think pointing it out as an example of out of control price increases is perfectly relevant to the conversation.

It might be a good example of the schools that have gone nuts. If the average increase in price is 5x, then there are some schools that have increased less than 5x.

 

[ChetlovesMer]

1 minute ago, saevel25 said:

It might be a good example of the schools that have gone nuts. If the average increase in price is 5x, then there are some schools that have increased less than 5x.

 

Yes, there are.
Liberty University is famous for a cost controlled way to acquire a degree. 

There also are a greater number of "Totally On-Line" universities now. Some have little or no "brick and mortar". 

These types of Universities help bring that number down to 5x. 
I believe there will be more and more of them in the future. Especially with so many examples of the traditional style universities running amuck with crazy out of control pricing. 

 

[TourSpoon]

Here is my favorite video on student debt. I will comment later.