World Cup 2022

[boogielicious]

9 hours ago, ChetlovesMer said:

One, I feel like it pushes everyone to do what ever they can to break the tie near the end so they get frantic.

Golden goal would do that. Score and you win. Having coached a few finals like this, with golden goal, they create much more offensive feel. No laying back. Both teams attacked aggressively. Very exiting.

[iacas]

6 hours ago, Abu3baid said:

could the players really go on any more?

Yes. They mostly walk. Other people literally run marathons.

[JetFan1983]

Loved everything about that game. Zero complaints from me as a casual fan. Crazy to think that Mexico/Canada/USA gets to host the next one with games in Miami that I can actually drive to. What a cool opportunity. 

I've been watching all the reactions from Argentina and it's truly something special to see. Wish I was in Buenos Aires right now 😄

[DeadMan]

2 hours ago, boogielicious said:

Golden goal would do that. Score and you win. Having coached a few finals like this, with golden goal, they create much more offensive feel. No laying back. Both teams attacked aggressively. Very exiting.

The golden goal was eliminated in the early 2000s because the perception was that teams were too afraid to attack. Teams didn't want to be caught on a counter, so they would stay back and play for penalties. Whether this perception is true, I have no idea. I do know that most people in European soccer hated the golden goal rule and loved to see it go.

In the 1950s and 1960s, the final of the World Cup could go to a replay if the teams were tied after 120 minutes. It never happened, but it was possible. I like the idea of a replay instead of other options, but it will never be feasible with how many games there are now.

[ChetlovesMer]

2 hours ago, boogielicious said:

Golden goal would do that. Score and you win. Having coached a few finals like this, with golden goal, they create much more offensive feel. No laying back. Both teams attacked aggressively. Very exiting.

I'd be okay with that too. But I would miss the PK's. I like them. 

[The Flush]

As we watched this my son and talked about going to golden goal after the first 15 minutes of extra time or giving the win to a team that is leading after the first 15. That might be a decent compromise between the old golden goal and could provide a winner without going to PKs.

[Darkfrog]

3 hours ago, ChetlovesMer said:

But I would miss the PK's. I like them. 

I think PK are the best way to settle a tie after 120 minutes given the alternatives. PK adds a different type of tension and drama compared to 11 v 11. Golden / silver goal did the opposite of what it was intended to do and made teams play conservatively.

I like everything about PK shootouts; the manager's strategy of deciding who takes the kicks and the order of the takers (why was Neymar Brazil's last taker against Croatia?), the gamesmanship, the body language and surface emotions of the PK takers and goalies, the players huddled around each other praying and crossing themselves.

There's a skill and maybe some art to taking PKs too - this one from Zidane in the 2006 World Cup (not in a shootout) is one of my favorites of all time. The balls to attempt a Panenka with so much on the line, and he almost missed.

 

[mcanadiens]

4 minutes ago, Darkfrog said:

I think PK are the best way to settle a tie after 120 minutes given the alternatives.

Given the nature of the game, I think it is only practical.

Constant game action and limited substitutions make unlimited sudden-death problematic. If the two teams are in a defensive frame of mind you could get a very long match, People would start having real health issues after a while. 

 

[iacas]

2 hours ago, mcanadiens said:

People would start having real health issues after a while. 

Oh please. People literally run marathons (and ultra-marathons). They run a lot farther than players in a World Cup match, and at high intensity too (soccer players run less than 10 and often less than seven miles during a match). Most of modern football/soccer is walking around. They do more faking of injuries (i.e. more standing or rolling around) than they do running.

PKs are mostly luck, and they have almost none of the elements of, you know, actual freaking soccer.

[Abu3baid]

45 minutes ago, iacas said:

Oh please. People literally run marathons (and ultra-marathons). They run a lot farther than players in a World Cup match, and at high intensity too (soccer players run less than 10 and often less than seven miles during a match). Most of modern football/soccer is walking around. They do more faking of injuries (i.e. more standing or rolling around) than they do running.

PKs are mostly luck, and they have almost none of the elements of, you know, actual freaking soccer.

 

But they aren’t marathon runners so they aren’t going to keep going like they do.  They are soccer players and you could see how some of them were physically exhausted even during the final at one point one French player basically kicked the ball out and crashed out of bounds and was subsequently replaced.. I’m sure he wasn’t faking being tired to exit one of the most important games in his career.

I disagree with the correlation between the two things, just like a basketball player is taken out all the time for being tired and no one is going to say oh marathoners run much longer than he does and with more intensity.

Each game has its own niche and since you mentioned that you are a soccer player ( at least I think you did, sorry if I misread it or misremember ) you know that not many people in the world play at the level these guys play at (probably less than the percent of people that play golf at a professional level anyway)

When you say continue playing, well, is it really going to be fair when they aren’t at their very best after 120 minutes?  As mentioned before the golden goal was tested and it sucked, so it was sidelined, plus the idea of taking a player out every what ever in my opinion is a non starter and at that point stops being soccer.  Same way 3 v 3 Basket Ball isn’t “Basket Ball”.

PKs have been and most likely will continue being the way to break a tie after exhausting the alternative, although I may be all for adding another 5 minutes to each additional half but probably wouldn’t want to go further than that.

However, everyone is free to have their opinion and I choose PKs 🙂

oh and I disagree that it’s luck.. Average is a little over 72% conversion I think but I have a hard time believing that any normal guys like us could convert anything near it against these level of goalies.  Someone better be able to hit it hard and accurate.

You would have a better argument if the conversion was 50 / 50 no?  Discounting what they do imo is a bit unfair.

[Vinsk]

1 hour ago, iacas said:

PKs are mostly luck

Yeah no.

[boogielicious]

2 minutes ago, Vinsk said:

Yeah no.

The French keeper guessed wrong four times. The Argentine keeper guessed right twice (one missed the net). That was the difference. There is a bit of luck if the keeper doesn’t see a tell in the kicker. At this level, most players are good at not giving tells. So they must guess which way and how high. So yes there is a good bit of luck.

Messi is next level. He gives a fake tell, the keeper dives and then he trickles it in. It is awesome. MBappe’ just kicks it so hard that the keeper can’t even catch up to it even if they guess right.

[iacas]

2 hours ago, Abu3baid said:

But they aren’t marathon runners so they aren’t going to keep going like they do.

No shit.

2 hours ago, Abu3baid said:

They are soccer players and you could see how some of them were physically exhausted even during the final at one point one French player basically kicked the ball out and crashed out of bounds and was subsequently replaced.

Then the better conditioned team will have an advantage.

2 hours ago, Abu3baid said:

When you say continue playing, well, is it really going to be fair when they aren’t at their very best after 120 minutes?

The game would have ended before 120 minutes. Argentina went up, game over.

2 hours ago, Abu3baid said:

You would have a better argument if the conversion was 50 / 50 no?  Discounting what they do imo is a bit unfair.

No. That makes no sense. Luck doesn't have to be 50/50 to be luck.

2 hours ago, Vinsk said:

Yeah no.

Yeah, yes.

The goalie either guesses right or he doesn't. Most of the time he doesn't. Since you only need to guess right one more time than the other guy to win… luck.

[Darkfrog]

49 minutes ago, iacas said:

The goalie either guesses right or he doesn't. Most of the time he doesn't. Since you only need to guess right one more time than the other guy to win… luck.

From a goal keeper's perspective luck plays a huge role in PKs. Sure, they need to know the tendencies of the shooter, observe for any feints/tells of direction in the run up, perfectly time their reaction to the ball coming off the foot, and maybe do stuff to influence the shot taker's direction like standing subtly off center, but it's still just a guess and react event.

On the other hand, a perfectly executed PK is impossible to stop, so there is plenty of skill on the shot taker's side, regardless of what the keeper's guess is.

[iacas]

24 minutes ago, Darkfrog said:

On the other hand, a perfectly executed PK is impossible to stop, so there is plenty of skill on the shot taker's side, regardless of what the keeper's guess is.

You don't need a perfectly executed PK to score the vast majority of the time, though. That's almost my point.

There's a reason the NHL (whose players often skate 5-6 miles in a game) don't go to shootouts in the playoffs.

[GolfLug]

On 11/30/2022 at 6:08 AM, GolfLug said:

On a different note, I am a bit worried for the Iranian team players. God knows what awaits them back home. And I am not talking about the game loss.

Apparently possible execution. Unfathomable. 

[Vinsk]

On 12/19/2022 at 5:42 PM, boogielicious said:

The French keeper guessed wrong four times. The Argentine keeper guessed right twice (one missed the net). That was the difference. There is a bit of luck if the keeper doesn’t see a tell in the kicker. At this level, most players are good at not giving tells. So they must guess which way and how high. So yes there is a good bit of luck.

Messi is next level. He gives a fake tell, the keeper dives and then he trickles it in. It is awesome. MBappe’ just kicks it so hard that the keeper can’t even catch up to it even if they guess right.

Hard disagree that guessing a way to dive is a necessary strategy. It’s not, and it’s idiotic. These are world class athletes. They rely on their reflexes, reaction times, and their agility. A good kick isn’t a piece of cake. We’ve seen the greatest PK shooters miss the goal entirely. It’s a skill. How many times did you see a PK go right down the middle and score because the keeper did the exact opposite of what goal keeping is about?

A hard stuck shot to the side nets aren’t stoppable either low or high. Even if they guess correctly. But a shot that’s at the keeper or between the keeper and the posts, the keeper has a chance. They must rely on their reaction and go with it. Not blindly guess where only a small percentage  of shots will match up. Guess RL, RM, RH, LL, LM, LH? And, zero chance of stopping even a dinker down the middle which happened multiple times. Striking a ball right at the keeper, especially without power, should never be a goal. Period. And it can’t be assumed that your kicker is going to strike it perfectly. Again, it’s a skill. Both players can choke or even just waffle a bit. But blindly picking a side eliminates any chance for what otherwise could’ve been a stoppable shot. Unless the keeper just happens to guess the right side and the right height. 👍🙂
 

 

 

[iacas]

8 hours ago, Vinsk said:

Hard disagree that guessing a way to dive is a necessary strategy. It’s not, and it’s idiotic.

What are you talking about? They almost all guess. If they waited until the ball was kicked they'd have even less of a chance.

8 hours ago, Vinsk said:

They rely on their reflexes, reaction times, and their agility.

And a whole lot of luck.

I just messaged one of my students, a goalkeeper for a professional soccer team… and he said that they know the history (i.e.he likes to go high right), but it's just guesswork. He called it "a game of rock-paper-scissors with way worse odds" because even if you guess right and go early, you still don't have the time to get to a well-placed shot.

8 hours ago, Vinsk said:

A good kick isn’t a piece of cake.

Nobody's saying it is. But even I can aim at the upper crosses and hit it one time out of three or four, and scare it most of the other times.

It's way easier than golf.

8 hours ago, Vinsk said:

How many times did you see a PK go right down the middle and score because the keeper did the exact opposite of what goal keeping is about?

Goalkeeping in a game is different than goalkeeping in a PK.

8 hours ago, Vinsk said:

Unless the keeper just happens to guess the right side and the right height. 👍🙂

Correct… luck.