Relative Importance of Driving/Approach Shots, Short Game, Putting, etc. (LSW, Mark Broadie, Strokes Gained, etc.)

[Dave2512]

People that track PPR tend to put too much value on the number without giving it much thought. Most of my one putts are the result of a chip traded for a putt because I missed the green. I don't make as many birdies as I'd like really don't have many chances.

[billchao]

People that track PPR tend to put too much value on the number without giving it much thought. Most of my one putts are the result of a chip traded for a putt because I missed the green. I don't make as many birdies as I'd like really don't have many chances.

That's the biggest problem with Putts/Round. It generally doesn't indicate putting skill, especially for better players, as the number of putts tends to go up when they make more GIR because they are starting from farther away from the hole than if they just miss the green and chip it close.

[RFKFREAK]

That's the biggest problem with Putts/Round. It generally doesn't indicate putting skill, especially for better players, as the number of putts tends to go up when they make more GIR because they are starting from farther away from the hole than if they just miss the green and chip it close.

It also doesn't count when you are just off the green and use the putter instead of a wedge which can happen one or two times a round.

[boogielicious]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave2512

People that track PPR tend to put too much value on the number without giving it much thought. Most of my one putts are the result of a chip traded for a putt because I missed the green. I don't make as many birdies as I'd like really don't have many chances.

That's the biggest problem with Putts/Round. It generally doesn't indicate putting skill, especially for better players, as the number of putts tends to go up when they make more GIR because they are starting from farther away from the hole than if they just miss the green and chip it close.

I get a lot of one putts, not because I hit it close with a GIR.  But because I have a nGIR and chip or pitch it close.  I would take more putts and more GIR any day of the week!

[Osmond]

I play weekly with people who have excellent short games, and can putt the lights out. They're 18 - 20 handicappers. Distance? They would love to hit a 180 yd drive. And then this high school girl gets on my case if I mishit and don't carry the 200 yd marker with my driver. "Come on, Julie!" So I hand it to her and she crushes it with a 225 carry. She's a regular, and we have a match scheduled for the spring. She's going to kick my ass. It'll be fun, though.

A 20-capper being "excellent" at short game sounds, to me, as believable as a 13 hdc telling people he'd be scratch if his short game didn't suck. With a genuinely good short game you are single digit, no matter how bad you strike the ball.

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave2512

People that track PPR tend to put too much value on the number without giving it much thought. Most of my one putts are the result of a chip traded for a putt because I missed the green. I don't make as many birdies as I'd like really don't have many chances.

That's the biggest problem with Putts/Round. It generally doesn't indicate putting skill, especially for better players, as the number of putts tends to go up when they make more GIR because they are starting from farther away from the hole than if they just miss the green and chip it close.

A better stat is putts per GIR, but that can be almost as misleading.  It still depends on how close you are to the flagstick on your approaches.  If you average 20 feet, your putting should appear better than if you average 40 feet from the pin.   Just as with chipping, your ability with the longer game has a definite effect on how many putts you have.

A more difficult stat for the average player to keep is percentage of putts made from various distances (in part because very few of us are as good at judging those distances as we think we are ).  That is a more telling number, and it applies solely to putting without being skewed by chipping or approach success.

[Dave2512]

This is how products like Game Golf can help amateurs better understand what they really do on the course.

[Golfingdad]

That's the biggest problem with Putts/Round. It generally doesn't indicate putting skill, especially for better players, as the number of putts tends to go up when they make more GIR because they are starting from farther away from the hole than if they just miss the green and chip it close.

A better stat is putts per GIR, but that can be almost as misleading.  It still depends on how close you are to the flagstick on your approaches.  If you average 20 feet, your putting should appear better than if you average 40 feet from the pin.   Just as with chipping, your ability with the longer game has a definite effect on how many putts you have.

A more difficult stat for the average player to keep is percentage of putts made from various distances (in part because very few of us are as good at judging those distances as we think we are   ).  That is a more telling number, and it applies solely to putting without being skewed by chipping or approach success.

I like the stat that they show occasionally on TV during a tournament where they give you the total length in feet of the putts a guy has made that day.

The bottom line, though, is that any of these putting stats doesn't tell the whole story, it has to be taken in context with everything else.

[billchao]

A more difficult stat for the average player to keep is percentage of putts made from various distances (in part because very few of us are as good at judging those distances as we think we are  :blink: ).

Definitely. I'd love to track that kind of stuff, but anything outside of 8' and my estimates aren't reliable at all. [quote name="Golfingdad" url="/t/14930/relative-importance-of-the-long-game-short-game-etc-mark-broadie-strokes-gained-lsw-etc/540#post_1094865"] The bottom line, though, is that any of these putting stats doesn't tell the whole story, it has to be taken in context with everything else. [/quote]Agreed. Everything is related, so that's how you have to look at things.

[MattM]

Well....I'm in that really weird territory where I am sinking first and second putts lights out from 7ft and in, but when I have to go up and down for PAR I cannot sink the putt to save PAR if it's more than 3 ft....... It KILLED my score all of last year!!!! As LSW would say I got alot a queens but couldn't convert into PARs. My Kings are going up as well. It's that damn up and down percentage that is killing me!

[Aflighter]

A 20-capper being "excellent" at short game sounds, to me, as believable as a 13 hdc telling people he'd be scratch if his short game didn't suck.

With a genuinely good short game you are single digit, no matter how bad you strike the ball.

Yeah thats what i was thinking but didnt want to say anything.To be 20 handicapper and excellent short game they must really be spraying ball all over or just not hitting ball at all.

[Fourputt]

Another interesting mind game that many players get stuck on, myself included, is the stigma of the 3 putt.  I've always foolishly prided myself on having very few 3 putts , yet the reason is because I am usually chipping for birdie or worse, so my first putt is very often from closer to the hole than it typically is when I hit a green in regulation.  That decreases the incidence of 3 putts, increases the number of one putts, and basically makes the whole putts per round stat irrelevant.

It also means that if I have a couple more 3 putts in a round than my norm, it probably means that I actually hit a few more greens in regulation than my norm.

[Golfingdad]

Definitely. I'd love to track that kind of stuff, but anything outside of 8' and my estimates aren't reliable at all.

You know, this kind of stuff wouldn't be all that hard to track.  Since we use GG, it's not important to write down most of the typical stats we used to use, right?  Heck, I don't even keep score anymore.  If it's a competition, I or somebody else will write it all down, but usually I'm just tallying everything up afterwards on the computer anyway.

So, maybe it would be pretty easy to grab a scorecard and just start tracking putt lengths.  We're Aimpointing, so we're already getting a good estimate on the first putt, and ideally the second putt is close enough to estimate quickly as well.

Yeah, maybe I'll try this, it could be interesting. :)

[saevel25]

So, maybe it would be pretty easy to grab a scorecard and just start tracking putt lengths.  We're Aimpointing, so we're already getting a good estimate on the first putt, and ideally the second putt is close enough to estimate quickly as well.

Yeah, maybe I'll try this, it could be interesting. :)

I was keeping stats for 3-5', 5-10', 10-15'. I would keep track of the number of times my 25'+ putts ended up inside of 10% the distance of the putt (lag putting). I really don't care about 15-25' putts.

Really it isn't hard to do. Yea, using Aimpoint really makes this sort of data collection seamless. I just mark it down on the scorecard. Heck I might start making my own stat card to just keep in with my Aimpoint chart.

[cipher]

I was keeping stats for 3-5', 5-10', 10-15'. I would keep track of the number of times my 25'+ putts ended up inside of 10% the distance of the putt (lag putting). I really don't care about 15-25' putts.

Really it isn't hard to do. Yea, using Aimpoint really makes this sort of data collection seamless. I just mark it down on the scorecard. Heck I might start making my own stat card to just keep in with my Aimpoint chart.

I was thinking about doing this as well but instead I was going to keep track of each measurement from 5-10 independently so I can get a better idea of how I am doing at each distance.  I am not sure how doable this is, but I was going to try.  It might not gather enough data though over the course of the year I am afraid.

[Golfingdad]

I was keeping stats for 3-5', 5-10', 10-15'. I would keep track of the number of times my 25'+ putts ended up inside of 10% the distance of the putt (lag putting). I really don't care about 15-25' putts.

Really it isn't hard to do. Yea, using Aimpoint really makes this sort of data collection seamless. I just mark it down on the scorecard. Heck I might start making my own stat card to just keep in with my Aimpoint chart.

I was thinking about doing this as well but instead I was going to keep track of each measurement from 5-10 independently so I can get a better idea of how I am doing at each distance.  I am not sure how doable this is, but I was going to try.  It might not gather enough data though over the course of the year I am afraid.

Yeah, if you just write down the distance of each putt (if you're not keeping score, then you have 4 rows in each column which BETTER BE more than enough) then you can compile the stats in any way you'd like.

Grouping them like Matt does makes sense to counteract any error in my measurement estimations.

[billchao]

You know, this kind of stuff wouldn't be all that hard to track.  Since we use GG, it's not important to write down most of the typical stats we used to use, right?  Heck, I don't even keep score anymore.  If it's a competition, I or somebody else will write it all down, but usually I'm just tallying everything up afterwards on the computer anyway. So, maybe it would be pretty easy to grab a scorecard and just start tracking putt lengths.  We're Aimpointing, so we're already getting a good estimate on the first putt, and ideally the second putt is close enough to estimate quickly as well. Yeah, maybe I'll try this, it could be interesting. :)

Well I use express, so I'm not looking at distance at all, but you're right. I don't see why I can't keep track of putting distances less than 15', which I'll still have reasonable confidence in estimating. I still keep track of my usual stats; it helps me remember my rounds accurately to put in the computer. GameGolf will have me on a green or fairway when I'm just off and I might not remember without the scorecard.

[Dave2512]

I used GolfLogix to track putts for a while but it was a PITA. Used it to track all clubs and it was cumbersome to do while playing.