Relative Importance of Driving/Approach Shots, Short Game, Putting, etc. (LSW, Mark Broadie, Strokes Gained, etc.)

[mvmac]

However that could also be the reason that I'm constantly told to work on my short game.  I will admit that I have a very bad short game and have had several 4-5 putts or had to chip 2-3 times because I undershoot or overshoot the green.  I'm getting it though lol

Well if you hit the green in regulation that would take care of the chipping problems Seriously though, players drop more shots long term when their long games (more than 100 yards) improve compared to their short games.  When every other shot isn't topped, thinned, fatted, golfers will shoot lower scores.  Lower handicap golfers miss it better than high handicappers and hit more greens in regulation.

[purple drank]

The SECRET is hitting GIR and lag putting. Or to sum it up your iron play and every once in a while stuffing a 15-20 foot putt. Grip your grip....swing your swing and play your game as long as it gits er done. Tommy Gainey has probably the most fundamentally disastrous and ugly swing that would rival Chuck Barkley and Happy Gilmore with the 2 Louisville Slugger batting gloves and tar. I mean he swings from his ass....literally. Fehrety summed it up best when Gainey hit an approach shot by stating tha he just "murdered another sand wedge"......He would get laughed off my local track until they saw the results.

[iacas]

The SECRET is hitting GIR and lag putting. Or to sum it up your iron play and every once in a while stuffing a 15-20 foot putt. Grip your grip....swing your swing and play your game as long as it gits er done. Tommy Gainey has probably the most fundamentally disastrous and ugly swing that would rival Chuck Barkley and Happy Gilmore with the 2 Louisville Slugger batting gloves and tar. I mean he swings from his ass....literally. Fehrety summed it up best when Gainey hit an approach shot by stating tha he just "murdered another sand wedge"......He would get laughed off my local track until they saw the results.

We have very different definitions of what's "fundamental" to the golf swing. He's got all five keys, as they say…

[saevel25]

The SECRET is hitting GIR and lag putting. Or to sum it up your iron play and every once in a while stuffing a 15-20 foot putt. Grip your grip....swing your swing and play your game as long as it gits er done. Tommy Gainey has probably the most fundamentally disastrous and ugly swing that would rival Chuck Barkley and Happy Gilmore with the 2 Louisville Slugger batting gloves and tar. I mean he swings from his ass....literally. Fehrety summed it up best when Gainey hit an approach shot by stating tha he just "murdered another sand wedge"......He would get laughed off my local track until they saw the results.

Lag putting is just an excuse used for those who don't putt well. "Oh I got it with in 3 feet". If you want to putt better, actually focus on making all putts.

Gainey pretty fundamentally sound. Steady head, Weight forward at impact, hands ahead of the ball at impact, ability to control the club path and club face. He just has a weird set up. He has a pretty good swing. You are reading a book by its cover, instead of looking at the details.

[Lihu]

We have very different definitions of what's "fundamental" to the golf swing. He's got all five keys, as they say…

What was meant by "fundamentally disastrous" swing? I watched a few of his swings, and did not really see anything disastrous about it. Plus, I probably don't fully understand the 5SK method, and how it applies to Tommy Gainey. I know how it seems to apply to me, given that I can hit much better now.

[iacas]

Plus, I probably don't fully understand the 5SK method, and how it applies to Tommy Gainey.

It's not a "method" and it's off topic for this thread, but Tommy has "all five keys": http://purestrike5sk.com/ .

[purple drank]

Lag putting is just an excuse used for those who don't putt well. "Oh I got it with in 3 feet". If you want to putt better, actually focus on making all putts.  Gainey pretty fundamentally sound. Steady head, Weight forward at impact, hands ahead of the ball at impact, ability to control the club path and club face. He just has a weird set up. He has a pretty good swing. You are reading a book by its cover, instead of looking at the details.

No I'm not. In fact I didn't mention a single word or reference his ball striking ability one time. Gainey has gawd awful fundamentals but fundamentals have zero to do with one's ability to score low.

[purple drank]

IMO and from personal experience....tempo and ball striking ability are the 2 keys to success and consistency. Again...my opinion only....I'm no instructor and am in no position to give advice...I am speaking from my own trials and tribulations on the course.

[iacas]

No I'm not. In fact I didn't mention a single word or reference his ball striking ability one time. Gainey has gawd awful fundamentals but fundamentals have zero to do with one's ability to score low.

I disagree that he has bad fundamentals. Let's stick to the topic though.

[wils5150]

As a newer golfer to the game, and having read lots of the instruction books, watched hours of video's, and heard too many tips and tricks from friends to count, I agree with McLean.  So you can drive a par 4 (I know it's an exaggeration) but so what.  If you can't putt, chip, or pitch you might still bogey or double bogey the hole.  From what I've seen you see more of your "faults" on the short game.  What I mean is that the target is smaller, so the minor mistakes may make us miss the shot, when on longer shots we'd just be a few feet off where we really wanted to be but still in good position. That's not to say I don't think that long game should be practiced (I know I sure do!) but more time really should be spent on the short game and perfecting that.  Again just my opinion as a newer golfer.  Also this is what I've heard pretty much across the board since I started.

almost any non golfer could 3 putt for a par if there drive was on the green. i have said it many times. you can be the best putter on earth but who cares if you are putting for a 8.

[Lowkie]

Having digested this conversation, and one with a golf buddy of mine...I have to say that the debate of long or short game really comes down to the individual player.  For some players who are naturally better at the long game, then of course the short game is their area to concentrate on, and the same for the opposite.

@wils5150 I have to respectfully disagree with you.  I personally can't read a green to save my life yet, so it takes me more then three sometimes.  If all greens were perfectly flat with the exactly same green speed then yes I would agree.  But as every green is slightly different if you can't read the green (which is IMO a learned asset) then it could easily take more then 3.

[billchao]

Having digested this conversation, and one with a golf buddy of mine...I have to say that the debate of long or short game really comes down to the individual player.  For some players who are naturally better at the long game, then of course the short game is their area to concentrate on, and the same for the opposite. @wils5150 I have to respectfully disagree with you.  I personally can't read a green to save my life yet, so it takes me more then three sometimes.  If all greens were perfectly flat with the exactly same green speed then yes I would agree.  But as every green is slightly different if you can't read the green (which is IMO a learned asset) then it could easily take more then 3.

Your putting would qualify as a glaring weakness and probably deserves more attention, then, but I seriously doubt you are 4 or 5 putting every green but getting on in 2 or 3. Your overall game could benefit from improvement on all fronts, but it doesn't change the fact that the long game has more impact on scoring than the short game. I think part of the reason this argument is still going on is because people are trying to see it anecdotally and on an individual golfer by golfer point of view. It's kind of working backwards with statistics: people are pointing out the outliers and using them to argue their points when they should be throwing them out as anomalies.

[Righty to Lefty]

Long game by a long shot for sure. I say this because to be competent in the short game shots just doesn't take that long.  I mean if you went out to the course with your sand wedge and say I am not leaving until I can reasonably chip and pitch the golf ball I bet it would take a couple hours. I'm sorry but if you can't formulate a plan to get a golf ball to move a few feet and then roll like a putt then you are not going to be a very good golfer. With putting I find a nasty slope and set up the Mickelson three foot drill and hit one hundred putts.  At first my make percentage was awful at 82-85% make but after about three weeks I was up to 92-95% make and this makes a tremendous difference on all of your other putts. Lag putting is as simple as either learning to control your backswing length or controlling how you stroke your putts. A certain length backswing can only hit a putt so far with max effort but if you are at max effort on some putts and half effort on others you  are going to hit the ball a different distance and be a poor putter because your line and speed won't match very often. The three foot drill will also teach you how to read putts as all the breaks a putt can have are experienced every time you go around that circle and you will become better at finding the zero line.

Long game is a completely different animal because we are talking about hitting a target that is pretty far away with clubs with very little loft on them and that is never easy. Of course the goal is to be as competent as you can at hitting these shots but the fact is they are low percentage shots even for pros to hit close to the flag. Hitting the green in regulation is the most important factor in scoring well in my opinion. I have raised my GIR from 29 to 50% with a lot of practice and the game becomes much easier when you can just pencil in those as pars a high percentage of the time. It all goes hand and hand because as you begin to hit more greens you will then begin to hit you spot on your chips better which will in turn help your short game proficiency.

[Lihu]

No I'm not. In fact I didn't mention a single word or reference his ball striking ability one time. Gainey has gawd awful fundamentals but fundamentals have zero to do with one's ability to score low.

How does this happen?

For the long game, of course.

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

Spend more time on this site then. Read up on what the 5sk guys say and give it a chance and I think you'll find it makes a whole heck of a lot of sense. The short game is just way too easy (RELATIVELY) to be spending more time practicing it than practicing your full swing. And one more reminder: Long game doesn't mean gaining power so you can "drive a par 4," it just means your full swing. It's a fact that people, by and large, lose more shots to putting themselves in bad spots off the tee (including OB and hazards, but sometimes trees, or simply rough) than they do from a chili dipped chip or a three putt.

I would tend to agree with thtat train of thought that yes when putting and chipping you have a lot less of a chance that you'll loose a ball OB or something like that.  Although, as funny as it sounds, I have actually seen someone chip OB by accident.

However I have seen it.  A buddy was trying to hit a high lob to a tight pin after short siding himself and thinned the ball over the green and past the OB fence.  He went from a potential birdie (it was a par 5 hole and that was his 3rd) to a 2 putt double.

That wasn't really a case of needing short game work so much as needing some course management training.  His long game was good enough to reach the green area in 2, and his short game was decent in general.  What he didn't consider was what might happen if he short sided himself, and then when he did that, he tried a low percentage shot from a poor lie.  In that case, poor decision making cost him at least 2 strokes.

He was a better ball striker that I was, yet we both carried the same handicap because I usually did a better job of thinking my way around the course and staying out of trouble.

[Golfingdad]

However I have seen it.  A buddy was trying to hit a high lob to a tight pin after short siding himself and thinned the ball over the green and past the OB fence.  He went from a potential birdie (it was a par 5 hole and that was his 3rd) to a 2 putt double.   That wasn't really a case of needing short game work so much as needing some course management training.  His long game was good enough to reach the green area in 2, and his short game was decent in general.  What he didn't consider was what might happen if he short sided himself, and then when he did that, he tried a low percentage shot from a poor lie.  In that case, poor decision making cost him at least 2 strokes. He was a better ball striker that I was, yet we both carried the same handicap because I usually did a better job of thinking my way around the course and staying out of trouble.

This is anecdotal, however, and means nothing. (Except its a bit funny ;)) Yesterday, I saw a guy take two shots to get to a green side bunker on a par 4 and then card an 11 on the hole. And this was in the ISPS World Cup!!! A world class touring pro did that!

[MS256]

This is anecdotal, however, and means nothing. (Except its a bit funny ;))

Yesterday, I saw a guy take two shots to get to a green side bunker on a par 4 and then card an 11 on the hole. And this was in the ISPS World Cup!!! A world class touring pro did that!

Just think how high the score would have been on that hole if he didn't have a long game. He might still be playing it.

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

However I have seen it.  A buddy was trying to hit a high lob to a tight pin after short siding himself and thinned the ball over the green and past the OB fence.  He went from a potential birdie (it was a par 5 hole and that was his 3rd) to a 2 putt double.

That wasn't really a case of needing short game work so much as needing some course management training.  His long game was good enough to reach the green area in 2, and his short game was decent in general.  What he didn't consider was what might happen if he short sided himself, and then when he did that, he tried a low percentage shot from a poor lie.  In that case, poor decision making cost him at least 2 strokes.

He was a better ball striker that I was, yet we both carried the same handicap because I usually did a better job of thinking my way around the course and staying out of trouble.

This is anecdotal, however, and means nothing. (Except its a bit funny ;))

Yesterday, I saw a guy take two shots to get to a green side bunker on a par 4 and then card an 11 on the hole. And this was in the ISPS World Cup!!! A world class touring pro did that!

Yeah, not really anything to do with the swing itself, but one example that there are more factors to scoring than just swinging the club.  As long as a player knows his strengths and accepts his weaknesses when on the course , he can improve his chances slightly more than what his swing alone might account for.  A good long game will certainly help the smart player to avoid those danger zones when planning any shot.  Identify the spot to which you really, really don't want to hit the ball, then play to the best compromise between the perfect shot, and what is realistic for your current skill level.