20+ handicappers hitting 300 yards (mild rant)

[Jeremie Boop]

7 minutes ago, klineka said:

So if your old 7 iron has 34 degrees of loft and you were able to generate enough spin to hold greens with the 34 degree lofted club, but now your 7 iron has 30 degrees of loft and your 8 iron has 35 degrees of loft, just use the 8 iron... It might take you some rounds and range sessions to adjust to the distances but really not that big of a deal.

When these lofts got stronger and stronger its not like a mid iron was eliminated requiring you to choose between a 30 degree 7 iron or a 40 degree 9 iron. The 35 degree club still exists it just has a different number stamped into the bottom of the club.

It's not that I couldn't do that, it's that I just prefer to stick with more traditional lofts. *actually my 7 iron is 32* which isn't quite traditional, but it was as close as I could get in "game improvement" style clubs in my price range*  My point was supposed to simply be that just because one person is using a club less does not mean they are hitting the ball further because of how strong lofts are getting these days. Granted I did go off on a bit of a tangent based on my own preferences when it comes to loft/spin so it probably wasn't as clear as I intended it to be.

[Vinsk]

3 hours ago, iacas said:

Yeah it does. Twice over.

• Less lateral error from same angular miss.
• Lower speeds mean less curve.

I may be over thinking this because that statement as it stands isn't true. Hitting shorter "automatically makes one more accurate." No, it doesn't. I hit much shorter distance than DJ or Rory but they are still much more accurate than I am. Not everybody's drives that are the shortest are the most accurate. It's not 'automatic'. I'm missing something here right? Are you saying two poorly hit shots, the longest one will be less accurate?

Edited September 7, 2017 by Vinsk

[JonMA1]

2 hours ago, Vinsk said:

 

@JonMA1 stated he sees short knockers who are 50yds behind bombers out score them. He stated distance is overrated based on this observation. He then goes to explain that the bombers are the guys who lots of ob, hazards, penalizing drives, while the short knockers are hitting from the fairway and making birdies. I then stated that there must be some other factors why the short knockers are winning and it doesn't prove that distance is overrated. And as one of those factors I don't think they are similar hcps (he said they were) if one is spraying drives ob, etc and the other is hitting the fairway and beating the other. 

Kevin, I don't think I stated this. If I'm mistaken, I apologize.

Let me try to state things a bit more clearly...

All things being equal, of course closer to the target is better. No argument there. Playing from a decent lie in the rough and closer to the hole is an advantage over further back from the fairway. We agree on this as well.

Where we disagree perhaps...

Two players with the exact same handicap can have very different skills. Any advantage one would have over the other (large sample of many rounds) would depend on the course or tees.

For example: I was referring specifically to poorer players like myself. If playing a wide open course, a long hitter can hit errant tee shots all day long and still keep in play. Advantage long hitter. But if the course is lined with woods, lots of water and dog legs that require a bit more precision, the shorter, more accurate player has the advantage because he/she is not incurring penalties while his long-hitting opponent is.

If you're a long hitter AND precise, then you're not playing a hack like me.

32 minutes ago, iacas said:

But I think you and @Vinsk are getting off track in that you're both making assumptions about how the other read or understood things.

Perhaps. I may be doing a poor job of communicating/understanding because I'm certain of what hurts my scores. There's not a lot of gray area (pun intended).

I'll concede that I lack knowledge of the rest of the golfing world. All I have is personal experience to go by (and I try hard to stay objective).

I understand the premise and completely agree that being closer to the target is a huge advantage. In other words, if I could gain yardage with all my clubs my scores would drop. That logic is sound.

But no more sound than arguing if I gained enough accuracy with my driver to keep it in play and my distance was kept the same, my scores would drop as well.

The important difference (in my mind) is that one of these options is possible, the other not so much.

In my narrow view of the game, I have lost to shorter hitters simply because I hit too many shots out of bounds while they kept their ball in play (I'm not talking fairway vs rough). Distance can't make up for penalty strokes. Would you agree?

To your point, I occasionally beat shorter hitters in part because I'm hitting approach shots with a mid iron while they're trying to hit them with a 5 wood.

Sorry, this is really off topic. Please feel free to move it to a more appropriate topic. 

[klineka]

25 minutes ago, Vinsk said:

I may be over thinking this because that statement as it stands isn't true. Hitting shorter "automatically makes one more accurate." No, it doesn't. I hit much shorter distance than DJ or Rory but they are still much more accurate than I am. Not everybody's drives that are the shortest are the most accurate. It's not 'automatic'.

Hitting shorter/slower reduces the maximum left/right dispersion you can go. If your max drive is 250 yards, theres no chance you could spray one 200 yards off line to the left or right. Someone like a professional long drive player with a maximum drive of lets say 400, could definitely spray a drive 200 yards off line. Look at these images from flightscope's online trajectory optimizer. The only thing I changed from shot to shot was the launch speed. 135, 175 and 200 mph. Each one keeps going further and further right but the only difference was the ball speed. 

Sure comparing your accuracy to a tour player isnt a fair comparison, but comparing someone similar skill level to yourself, the further you can hit it the smaller the margins become for how easy it is to hit the ball off your intended target line.  

https://flightscope.com/products/trajectory-optimizer/

 

As I was typing this, I just played around with the trajectory optimizer further, and 135 ball speed with a spin axis of 45 degrees, compared to a 175 ball speed with a spin axis of only 25 degrees, almost 50% less, the 175 mph shot still went further right compared to the 135 ball speed. Not only did it roll further right, it carried further right than the 135 mph ball rolled.

 

Edited September 7, 2017 by klineka

[Vinsk]

Maybe I'm just being too semantic? I know damn good and well that my hitting a drive 215 does not mean it will be more accurate than my drive I hit 270. Sometimes sure, but it's not automatic that a shorter drive is more accurate.

[iacas]

15 minutes ago, Vinsk said:

Maybe I'm just being too semantic? I know damn good and well that my hitting a drive 215 does not mean it will be more accurate than my drive I hit 270. Sometimes sure, but it's not automatic that a shorter drive is more accurate.

You are. And over-thinking it. Or putting too much weight on "automatic" by applying it to people instead of the simple math and logic of it.

A ball hit 200 yards is - for the reasons I listed above - not going to go as far offline as a ball hit with otherwise the same conditions for face angle, etc. as one hit far enough to go 300 yards.

[Vinsk]

41 minutes ago, iacas said:

applying it to people instead of the simple math and logic of it.

Bingo. Yes, thank you Erik.

[Fairway_CY]

22 hours ago, Vinsk said:

This scenario may appear to be occurring, but I doubt that's all there is to it. Anyone would take a shot from the rough than a ball in the fairway if it's sitting 50yds closer to the hole. The guys who bomb it must have either awful ball striking skills with their irons, or they consistently hit atrocious drives, OB, hazards, pot bunkers, etc. Distance is not overrated. Imagine if your short knocker friend was 30-50yds closer than he is now. Distance is key unless you are consistently hitting drives so bad as mentioned above. If the bomber guys ever hit a fairway, then your short knocker would struggle to beat them on those holes, unless as I said before, they are horrific every time off the tee.

To an extent... I agree 100%.  If the rough is not very penal and my line is unobstructed by obstacles... I'll take the shot 50 yards closer just about every time.  

Right now, however... my course is growing the rough incredibly thick so that there's some grass left once it goes dormant.  I'll take the shot from 160 in the fairway over the shot from 110 in the rough.  My distances is going to be more consistent, for one thing... and I'm far more likely to be on line from the fairway as well.  

Another factor is how the course is laid out.  Our course isn't long at all.  It's only 6614 yards from the tips... but it's also a course where you need to be able to work the ball.  On the back side alone, there are 3 holes where you almost have to hit an iron off the tee to avoid getting in trouble.  Other courses are definitely 'bomber' courses.  The need to place the ball in a specific position isn't there... so, then it goes back to what I said above.  How thick is the rough?  Where is the pin?  If it's back and I have room... I'll probably take the 110 yard shot.  If it's up front or behind some trouble... I'd prefer to hit the 7 iron to where I can (somewhat) control the distance.  
 

21 hours ago, JonMA1 said:

If by "low-level" you're talking about bogey golf or higher, I agree. Lack of distance is rarely the reason I get outscored. 

Again, if low-level amateur golf refers to high handicappers, awful ball striking skills and atrocious drives are very common.

I know almost nothing about golf at the level you play @Vinsk, but I know a bit about the game at my level.

I can imagine how distance can be the difference among a competitors who all minimize mistakes and can easily bounce back from the minor errors.

At my level (and admittedly from my limited experience), I have to respectfully disagree that distance is an automatic advantage. My opponents who have made less mistakes than me have overwhelmingly scored better - even when I'm out driving them or pulling less club for the same distance.

When player A can control his 200 yard club better than player B, he is going to win. Makes little difference whether player A needs a longer club than B for that 200 yards.

Distance is only an advantage with all else being close to equal, imo.

Yes... I probably worded it incorrectly, but... I meant higher handicaps.  



CY

[Kalnoky]

18 hours ago, downbylaw11 said:

since I posted in this topic, I actually saw a 300+ yard driver at the range for the first time.  well i must clarify, Im pretty sure he was hitting it 300.  the fence is supposed to be 250-260, but he was mashing it and had to have been carrying it half way up the fence, or more it seemed. the ball was simply disappearing of his face, but then again he was definitely not a 20+ handicapper.  he was however kind of a fat guy, so he had the obvious power source.  

This is fantastic

[downbylaw11]

8 hours ago, MattD said:

Ok guys my apologies for letting the thread denigrate to personal insults and body parts , Downbylaw is quite right and to him I personally and openly apologise. He is after all a fellow left handed and should, like all lefties be respected, we do after all sit to the right hand side of god.

My theory and it's only my theory , on distance is that left handlers are simply right hand tennis players playing a powerful backhand shot, feet planted hips rotating and shoulder unfurling and realeasing the wound up power. To build speed you drag the club towards the ball with your right hand and at the same time rotate your hips, the left hand is doing nothing but gently guilding the clubs direction , club, racquet, bat it's doesn't matter, the power comes from the hips and the right arm and shoulder.

BUT accuracy is not guaranteed, that comes with skill and experience , a 5 deg error is not to bad at 200y but at 300 it's is exponentially bad and probably out of bounds.

 

well, i am right handed for every day motor functions if thats what you mean. i throw right handed, but every other sport that involves holding something with 2 hands, I do left handed. ie hockey, baseball, golf

the reason you hit 300 is obvious. youre basically a big guy who's a golfer.  yeah, youve only been playing 'golf' for 6 months, but obviously cricket is a transferable skill in a lot of ways.  honestly anyone that's 250lbs and has that kind of background would likely hit it 300.  but we don't play cricket here, and baseball players are not our biggest export, thusly I have only seen a few people hit 300 yards at the range.  turning notifications off on this thread now, because dare I say I'm ****in over it

[onthehunt526]

I'm 30, 6'5", 220 lbs. Fairly strong. I'm round about an 8 HDCP. Can I occasionally hit a 300 yard drive? Yes. Is it an outlier? Absolutely. My normal drive is about 250 yards or so. 

[downbylaw11]

3 hours ago, onthehunt526 said:

I'm 30, 6'5", 220 lbs. Fairly strong. I'm round about an 8 HDCP. Can I occasionally hit a 300 yard drive? Yes. Is it an outlier? Absolutely. My normal drive is about 250 yards or so. 

are you just incredibly smooth and relaxed?  I feel like anyone with that type of build, should be able to just wallop the ball if they had a good swing. then again, nick faldo was a large guy and could never really hit it that far in relation to his build. 

[onthehunt526]

11 minutes ago, downbylaw11 said:

are you just incredibly smooth and relaxed?  I feel like anyone with that type of build, should be able to just wallop the ball if they had a good swing. then again, nick faldo was a large guy and could never really hit it that far in relation to his build. 

A few of the scratch players at my home course have been working with me on various things.

One of those things was helping me take the club back more to the inside so my trailing elbow is closer to my right side on the downswing creating "lag". My somewhat wild 250 could be a straight 275-280 by spring if I continue to work on it.

Yes, I feel I should wallop the ball. But I techinically average far enough to get to scratch... Would I like a little more distance? Sure. But I would rather be reasonably straight than try to pick up 25-30 yards and lose 1-2° of accuracy... Do I hit every fairway at 250? No. 

A bogey golfer, while theoretically could hit a drive 300 yards, it's not likely to happen with any kind of consistency. I'll take a consistent 250 over trying to overpower it for 300... 

Hilariously, (or factually), I actually hit some of my longest drives with a maybe 75-80% effort swing. Why? Because I feel more relaxed. My 106 mph clubhead speed might go down to 100-102, but my ball speed goes up when I swing at 75-80%. I just make better contact.

[Shindig]

sigh and meanwhile I look at yesterday's round;  most of my drives were under 200 yards.  And there was a time I was hitting it longer.  

Guess I need to do even more of that medicine ball drill. 

[downbylaw11]

even if you were only of average flexibility, you should be able to hit it much farther than you do if you are creating lag.  I guess if you werent creating any lag that would explain a lot of things.  i was under the impression your 250 was in the fairway, but if it's wild like you say, then you are definitely losing distance there, and if theres no lag, youre losing a huge source of distance.  if  you straighten out your ball flight, and learn to create a little lag, it wouldnt surprise me at all if you could hit 280-290 while not even swinging near 100% power.  anyways, good luck working on the swing adjustments. 

[onthehunt526]

3 minutes ago, downbylaw11 said:

even if you were only of average flexibility, you should be able to hit it much farther than you do if you are creating lag.  I guess if you werent creating any lag that would explain a lot of things.  i was under the impression your 250 was in the fairway, but if it's wild like you say, then you are definitely losing distance there, and if theres no lag, youre losing a huge source of distance.  if  you straighten out your ball flight, and learn to create a little lag, it wouldnt surprise me at all if you could hit 280-290 while not even swinging near 100% power.  anyways, good luck working on the swing adjustments. 

Well, I'm not wild, that's an exaggeration... I, at times, by my own admission overswing and come over the top... It's a work in progress though.

[downbylaw11]

3 minutes ago, onthehunt526 said:

Well, I'm not wild, that's an exaggeration... I, at times, by my own admission overswing and come over the top... It's a work in progress though.

i hear ya. im the same way with the driver

[JonMA1]

5 hours ago, Shindig said:

sigh and meanwhile I look at yesterday's round;  most of my drives were under 200 yards.  And there was a time I was hitting it longer.  

Guess I need to do even more of that medicine ball drill. 

And yet, you'd beat the tar out of me on my best day with the driver.