Jack vs. Tiger: Who's the Greatest Golfer?

[max power]

Just finished reading Golfer's Greatest Championship The 1960 US Open in which Tommy Bolt was asked who was greater - Jack or Ben Hogan. His response was that Hogan. In support of his opinion he noted that he has seen Nicklaus watch Ben practice, but had never seen Ben watch anyone, what does that tell you.

That is the most nonsensical argument I've ever heard. Did Jack's desire to learn from a great elder make him less of a player somehow?

[inthehole]

I'm favoring Jack career-wise - anxious to see how Tiger rebounds though

[RockingCPA]

I'm not quite old enough to have seen Jack in his prime, but I don't remember seeing highlights of him hitting some of the spectacular shots Tiger has made.  Can't remember the name of the tournament, but Tigers' 220+ yard 6-iron out of a fairway bunker over water to inside 6 feet has to be one of the best shots I've ever seen.  Just amazing!!  I'd have to side with Tiger.

[ghalfaire]

If the "Greatest" is defined by most major wins there isn't any argument, it is Jack.  But if you think maybe it also has something to do with positive impact on the game in addition to being a great player,  I vote for Arnold.

[sean_miller]

Using that criteria, I vote for Harry Vardon or maybe Old Tom Morris or Bobby Jones or Sam Snead or . . . Not sure really, but not the point of this discussion.

Originally Posted by ghalfaire

If the "Greatest" is defined by most major wins there isn't any argument, it is Jack.  But if you think maybe it also has something to do with positive impact on the game in addition to being a great player,  I vote for Arnold.

You should track that down. Other than the embellishment (inside 6-feet) it sounds eerily similar to a shot made at the Canadian Open, which finished up in the short rough over the green.

Originally Posted by RockingCPA

I'm not quite old enough to have seen Jack in his prime, but I don't remember seeing highlights of him hitting some of the spectacular shots Tiger has made.  Can't remember the name of the tournament, but Tigers' 220+ yard 6-iron out of a fairway bunker over water to inside 6 feet has to be one of the best shots I've ever seen.  Just amazing!!  I'd have to side with Tiger.

[Chas]

Originally Posted by RockingCPA

I'm not quite old enough to have seen Jack in his prime, but I don't remember seeing highlights of him hitting some of the spectacular shots Tiger has made.  Can't remember the name of the tournament, but Tigers' 220+ yard 6-iron out of a fairway bunker over water to inside 6 feet has to be one of the best shots I've ever seen.  Just amazing!!  I'd have to side with Tiger.

Well, I'm easily old enough to remember Nicklaus' prime - on the telly that is, never saw him in person.  He had a remarkably aggressive style, he really went after the ball in a way that was different from others in his day.  Some golfers today approach that explosive quality but still there isn't quite the same controlled abandon.  Maybe I'm just being nostalgic for black-and-white TV or something ....

[dbuck]

Originally Posted by RockingCPA

I'm not quite old enough to have seen Jack in his prime, but I don't remember seeing highlights of him hitting some of the spectacular shots Tiger has made.  Can't remember the name of the tournament, but Tigers' 220+ yard 6-iron out of a fairway bunker over water to inside 6 feet has to be one of the best shots I've ever seen.  Just amazing!!  I'd have to side with Tiger.

Check out the 1 iron to the 17th in the 72 US Open, the final round at Turnberry in 1977(even though he lost to Tom Watson), the four rounds of the 1980 US Open, and the back nine at the final round of the 86 Masters, just to name a few.

[SVTGolfer]

Tiger of course... He isnt done yet.

Plus I believe that the pedigree of golfers is better today than it was in Jack's time.

[jmanbooyaa]

As one being new to the game and watching it, I can say in the past I didn't really care for Tiger. As I began playing and watching the sport I began to enjoy and even want to catch Woods in a Tourny. I think he has shown he is human and that makes him more watchable and easy to route for.

[sungho_kr]

So Economically Tiger wins just from the marketing and purse money standpoint.

[Bigtank]

This thread is completely worthless if you leave out the likes of Bobby Jones and Ben Hogan!  Both, where taken from or walked away from the game in their prime and still are in the arguement...that in itself is amazing!

[dbuck]

Originally Posted by Bigtank

This thread is completely worthless if you leave out the likes of Bobby Jones and Ben Hogan!  Both, where taken from or walked away from the game in their prime and still are in the arguement...that in itself is amazing!

Actually, this thread is ONLY about Jack and Tiger.  If you look at the original post, it says "who is best, Jack or Tiger?"  not who is the greatest that ever lived.

I do agree with your thought though, that Jones and Hogan belong in the discussion of the greatest golfers, as do a few others.  Jones did retire in his prime at the tender age of 28, but Hogan probably played a little past his prime and retired when his game did not meet his exceptionally high standards.

[sean_miller]

Originally Posted by dbuck

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bigtank

This thread is completely worthless if you leave out the likes of Bobby Jones and Ben Hogan!  Both, where taken from or walked away from the game in their prime and still are in the arguement...that in itself is amazing!

Actually, this thread is ONLY about Jack and Tiger.  If you look at the original post, it says "who is best, Jack or Tiger?"  not who is the greatest that ever lived.

I do agree with your thought though, that Jones and Hogan belong in the discussion of the greatest golfers, as do a few others.  Jones did retire in his prime at the tender age of 28, but Hogan probably played a little past his prime and retired when his game did not meet his exceptionally high standards.

Jones had health issues and a career outside his hobby of amateur golf. As an amateur, he obviously won't have the same resume as someone eligible for the PGA Championship and The Masters was still in the future. He retired from the sport having accomplished all he wanted to.

The same could be said for another great player who retired when he was only 1/2 way through what could have been the best record ever.

Byron Nelson.

[Deryck Griffith]

Tiger is the greatest because he brought the interest of golf to generations of people of all shapes, sizes and colours.  He also single handily raised the purse money of all tournamets around the wrold to levels that far exceed anything Jack experienced in his time.

Plus, at the age of 34, Tiger has 14 majors and Jack had 12 so in taoday's snapshot in time (age wise), Tiger has more majors.  Furhtermore, it is a safe assumption for all of us to agree that Tiger has atleast another 11 years of good golf which makes 4 more majors realistic for him.

Again, the level of greatness is the direct impact one player can bring to millions of people around the world who would've otherwise never payed attention.  Jordan did that in his time and Tiger has and will contiune to as well which IMO, makes him the greatest.

Heck, how many of us on this forum wouldn't be ON this forum if Tiger Woods never existed? I think a HUGE number of us wouldn't be talking golf if Tiger didn't motivate many of us to try the game and play because of the way he brought a sense of excitement and coolness to the game...and that is a stone hard fact.

Jack didn't have and never HAS HAD that effect.

[TourSpoon]

Originally Posted by Deryck Griffith

Tiger is the greatest because he brought the interest of golf to generations of people of all shapes, sizes and colours.  He also single handily raised the purse money of all tournamets around the wrold to levels that far exceed anything Jack experienced in his time.

Plus, at the age of 34, Tiger has 14 majors and Jack had 12 so in taoday's snapshot in time (age wise), Tiger has more majors.  Furhtermore, it is a safe assumption for all of us to agree that Tiger has atleast another 11 years of good golf which makes 4 more majors realistic for him.

Again, the level of greatness is the direct impact one player can bring to millions of people around the world who would've otherwise never payed attention.  Jordan did that in his time and Tiger has and will contiune to as well which IMO, makes him the greatest.

Heck, how many of us on this forum wouldn't be ON this forum if Tiger Woods never existed? I think a HUGE number of us wouldn't be talking golf if Tiger didn't motivate many of us to try the game and play because of the way he brought a sense of excitement and coolness to the game...and that is a stone hard fact.

Jack didn't have and never HAS HAD that effect.

You had me up until the last sentence.  Not only is that incorrect, but he influenced many people including this kid from California that had posted all of his stats and records in his bedroom so he could emulate his career and possibly even eclipse it.  I remember my brother's set of MacGregor Golden Bears and how they were so cool.  Your points about Tiger and Michael Jordan are valid, but you have to remember that the marketing machinery (namely Nike) didn't really come out until after Jack's prime.  Jordan, back in '84 was the first real "world-wide phenomena" that I can recall.  Of course the old-timers will argue that Arnold had a serious influence on the game as he was the first real star of the television era.  Now I am not saying that Jack would be as far reaching as Tiger (I don't think so!), but to say he hasn't had that effect is not true.

[Deryck Griffith]

Originally Posted by TourSpoon

You had me up until the last sentence.  Not only is that incorrect, but he influenced many people including this kid from California that had posted all of his stats and records in his bedroom so he could emulate his career and possibly even eclipse it.  I remember my brother's set of MacGregor Golden Bears and how they were so cool.  Your points about Tiger and Michael Jordan are valid, but you have to remember that the marketing machinery (namely Nike) didn't really come out until after Jack's prime.  Jordan, back in '84 was the first real "world-wide phenomena" that I can recall.  Of course the old-timers will argue that Arnold had a serious influence on the game as he was the first real star of the television era.  Now I am not saying that Jack would be as far reaching as Tiger (I don't think so!), but to say he hasn't had that effect is not true.

You make good points.  Heck, Jack influenced Tiger which is the ironic thing so I certainly agree with you.

As it pertains to Nike, yes, Jack didn't benefit from that type of marketing machine.  With Tiger though, the fact that he looked "different" in a sport that was primarily ruled by the american, british elite really brought masses to the game around the world who never dreamed of having the chance at playing such a "rich man's sport."  That pressure with the pressure to perform consistently and live up to the hope of many in front of "everyone," media, fans, agents, sponors, etc, etc as a person that looked different is what really adds to why I think he's greatest.  In fact, I think all of the pressure to perform under those circumstances is what eventually caused him to moraly break down and do the stupid things he did which he has paid for in a BIG way this year.  I'm glad he paid for it because personly, getting caught I think is the best thing that has happened to him.  We'll see if he can continue to live up to being the greatest.

[sean_miller]

I think to say that he's pulling people into the sport and singlehandedly raised purses is rather debatable. Even if he does (did) draw new people to the game, who cares?

Is Taylor Swift a better artist than Joan Armatrading or Nancy Wilson because she makes more little girls want to pretend to play the guitar and sing? (That her music is completely awful is irrelevant).

[TourSpoon]

Originally Posted by Deryck Griffith

You make good points.  Heck, Jack influenced Tiger which is the ironic thing so I certainly agree with you.

As it pertains to Nike, yes, Jack didn't benefit from that type of marketing machine.  With Tiger though, the fact that he looked "different" in a sport that was primarily ruled by the american, british elite really brought masses to the game around the world who never dreamed of having the chance at playing such a "rich man's sport."  That pressure with the pressure to perform consistently and live up to the hope of many in front of "everyone," media, fans, agents, sponors, etc, etc as a person that looked different is what really adds to why I think he's greatest.  In fact, I think all of the pressure to perform under those circumstances is what eventually caused him to moraly break down and do the stupid things he did which he has paid for in a BIG way this year.  I'm glad he paid for it because personly, getting caught I think is the best thing that has happened to him.  We'll see if he can continue to live up to being the greatest.

Do you think the pressure was from performing under those circumstances or could it be from his father's "How to Raise a Tiger" approach to creating a prodigy?  Probably a combination of everything.  I don't think the human psyche is programmed to be able to handle such a roller coaster ride.

I do have to give the edge as far as greatest golfer to Jack with the full understanding that Tiger has all the gifts to become the greatest.  IMO, time will tell.  Every golfer has had their obstacles to overcome and it will be interesting to see how it all plays out.  I have seen Tiger blister it at Doral and have witnessed Jack on the Senior Tour at PGA National just be a surgeon.  Both are legends and I have been lucky enough to have seen both play great golf in person.