Male Scratch Golfer on the LPGA Tour

[Golfingdad]

That's true for many tournament golf courses.   The ball seems to run forever.   But that'd be true for male scratch golfers, too.   Not all of them would average 300 yards on drives on LPGA courses.  In fact, a typical scratch golfer I know drive closer to 250 - 270 on average on my course.   The few who drive more than 270 yards are not scratch golfers.    But scratch golfer is a scratch golfer whether he is averaging 230 or 300 yard drives.  Either one can make the cuts on LPGA tournaments at any given day.   But neither will likely beat the top LPGA players.    I digressed a bit b/c someone here is keep making a claim that a long hitting scratch golfer can beat the top LPGA players.   Long hitting or not, his score average will fall in a narrow range that defines "scratch" golfer.  Here's another data point for this thread.  10 years ago, Anika played in a PGA tour and scored 71-74 on Par 70 7000+ yard course and beat 11 male PGA tour golfers.   Can a typical male scratch golfer do that?   I think not.   You may argue Anika was special as an LPGA golfers go.  But since her time, LPGA playing level have gone up, thanks to Koreans who brought higher level competition to LPGA and made LPGA a global competition.

The Annika thing is a non starter. We're not suggesting that scratch golfers could beat top lpga pros, like all of the great Koreans you mentioned. We're suggesting that they could make cuts and fit right into the middle of the pack - which is CONSIDERABLY far behind the top. There is NO depth of field. New nickname for the LPGA Tour: "f/1.4".

[jsgolfer]

I used to play with a girl who was one of the top golfers from Princeton, from the red tees she was a +2 and would kick my butt, from the blue tees she couldn't beat me when I was a 4.  There were just too many holes where I was hitting a 7-iron or less and she was hitting a 7 wood or more.  And my short game and putting were better.

[DrvFrShow]

There is another possibility. Women aren't as obsessed about practicing as men, and that's why Lihu's friend didn't consider turning pro. We have a lot of other things to do, and the pay off isn't as great as it is for the men.

[Moxie Dawn]

I admit, I haven't read every post in this thread, because INRATS.

Speculation is a great mental activity. I love it. The only thing I would add is the most obvious. There is a reason why women's sports leagues exist, and it is because we can't compete with men. When I strain my mind to think of competitive events that could be considered "equal" in terms of sex, I can't think of any. I thought of billiards, but even in that, the typical male has a height and reach advantage. Based on all the science I can find, the only physical advantage women have over men is that it takes us longer to starve to death.

But I have been enjoying the posts.

[iacas]

@Moxie Dawn , this thread discusses the size of the advantage, not whether one even exists.

[DrvFrShow]

There's an advantage, Erik, and that's quite obvious. I can tell you what the advantage is in putting. It's upper body strength. I've been thinking about this. Men have more muscle strength and it is plain physics that they'll be able to control even the putter better. That's the advantage for men in sports - testosterone.

The LPGA is what it is: a bunch of highly talented women playing the game at a very high level. We have our professional golf. Is it really necessary to point out that a male scratch golfer could make the cut at an LPGA event? So what? I don't really care how big the gap is. I'm with Moxie on this. Does it really need to be discussed? Does it really matter?

But what we don't need is a constant reminder that our brand of golf is inferior to men's golf.

[Lihu]

There's an advantage, Erik, and that's quite obvious. I can tell you what the advantage is in putting. It's upper body strength. I've been thinking about this. Men have more muscle strength and it is plain physics that they'll be able to control even the putter better. That's the advantage for men in sports - testosterone.

The LPGA is what it is: a bunch of highly talented women playing the game at a very high level. We have our professional golf. Is it really necessary to point out that a male scratch golfer could make the cut at an LPGA event? So what? I don't really care how big the gap is. I'm with Moxie on this. Does it really need to be discussed? Does it really matter?

But what we don't need is a constant reminder that our brand of golf is inferior to men's golf.

I'd think this was more of a disadvantage in putting? Seems like better control of the muscles is more important than strength. I'm leaning towards the thought that women can learn to putt just as well if given the requirements to do so.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by DrvFrShow

There's an advantage, Erik, and that's quite obvious. I can tell you what the advantage is in putting. It's upper body strength. I've been thinking about this. Men have more muscle strength and it is plain physics that they'll be able to control even the putter better.

I'm going to assume you're joking about this.

The LPGA is what it is: a bunch of highly talented women playing the game at a very high level. We have our professional golf. Is it really necessary to point out that a male scratch golfer could make the cut at an LPGA event? So what? I don't really care how big the gap is. I'm with Moxie on this. Does it really need to be discussed? Does it really matter?

… she says in post #438 of (what is now) a 440-post thread.

But what we don't need is a constant reminder that our brand of golf is inferior to men's golf.

So don't read the thread. It's a topic that interests some people.

I don't know what to tell ya.

[Moxie Dawn]

BOOBS.

Has anyone said boobs create a huge disadvantage yet, or are we afraid CBS will fire us? Because they sure as hell do. The bigger they are, the less stank you can put on your drive, I assure you. They get in the way of putting too. Speaking of which, I'm hitting it about 150 yards on my best strikes as a total novice. How's that sound?

[cipher]

[COLOR=EE82EE][SIZE=22px]BOOBS. [/SIZE][/COLOR] Has anyone said boobs create a huge disadvantage yet, or are we afraid CBS will fire us? Because they sure as hell do. The bigger they are, the less stank you can put on your drive, I assure you. They get in the way of putting too. Speaking of which, I'm hitting it about 150 yards on my best strikes as a total novice. How's that sound?

Nah, Phil does just fine.

[Lihu]

[quote name="Moxie Dawn" url="/t/27302/male-scratch-golfer-on-the-lpga-tour/420#post_1115896"] [COLOR=EE82EE][SIZE=22px]BOOBS. [/SIZE][/COLOR] Has anyone said boobs create a huge disadvantage yet, or are we afraid CBS will fire us? Because they sure as hell do. The bigger they are, the less stank you can put on your drive, I assure you. They get in the way of putting too. Speaking of which, I'm hitting it about 150 yards on my best strikes as a total novice. How's that sound?

Nah, Phil does just fine.[/quote] :-D rofl :-D

[rkim291968]

We're suggesting that they could make cuts and fit right into the middle of the pack - which is CONSIDERABLY far behind the top. There is NO depth of field.

That point has been made number of times in this thread and I agree.   As someone (iacas?) mentioned in the thread, after the top 30, quality of players falls off.   That too will change over time.   LPGA total events & prize $$$ have been growing.   Their last event is worth $1M bonus + tournament prize.   More money = more girls entering pro golf = more competition = improved quality.  DrvFrShow best get going before the competition gets really tough to make the LPGA tour.

[acerimusdux]

The average male according to the "Tee it forward" reference you provided would have the average male play from 5600 yards with a 210 yard drive. This makes a lot of sense.

In regard to the 140 yard average for women, I don't think it would be very interesting to watch an LPGA that plays from the same distances 8 to 10 year old kids (of both sexes) play from in the First Tee program.

Well yes, no one would suggest that, anymore than they would suggest that the PGA Tour players should play from the same tees as average men.

But if you look at the PGA players, the last couple of weekends in Florida they have been playing on courses of about 7300 yards. That's a multiple of about 25 times the average drive of the 100th best PGA Tour pro in driving distance (which is about 290 yards).  With the average drive for the 100th ranked woman at 243 yards, the equivalent for women should be a course around 6100 yards. But the LPGA layouts are nearly always over 6400 yards, and most often seem to be about 6600 (for example, the HSBC in Singapore last weekend was 6600, and the Founder's cup next weekend is at 6583).

So my point was that the LPGA ladies are already being challenged more, distance wise, relative to what other women are doing, than the PGA men are relative to what other men are doing.

You can also look at it from the point of view of the scratch golfer. Per the USGA, a scratch male is able to hit his drive 250 yards. That makes the PGA layouts a multiple of about 29 times this driving distance (29*250=7250). A scratch female is supposed to hit her drive 210 yards.  So a multimple of 29 times would again suggest an equivalent distance is about 6100 yards (29*210=6090).

But for a more average woman, even if she is driving it 150, then even using a multiple of 29 (comparable to a scratch golfer playing the same tees as the PGA Tour) suggests she should be playing a yardage of around 4350. That's far shorter than most ladies tees are actually set up. When the shortest tees on the course are set up at around 5000 yards, that can make even taking the game up more difficult for all but the most talented women.

So yes, I think acknowledging the significant differences in physical strength, and playing even shorter yardages, might actually help to increase both the overall level of play and the depth of field in the women's game.

[Lihu]

BOOBS.

Has anyone said boobs create a huge disadvantage yet, or are we afraid CBS will fire us? Because they sure as hell do. The bigger they are, the less stank you can put on your drive, I assure you. They get in the way of putting too. Speaking of which, I'm hitting it about 150 yards on my best strikes as a total novice. How's that sound?

This one's for you:

It was in my "Swing by swing" alert, and I immediately thought of this post. . .

[Golfingdad]

That point has been made number of times in this thread and I agree.   As someone (iacas?) mentioned in the thread, after the top 30, quality of players falls off.   That too will change over time.   LPGA total events & prize $$$ have been growing.   Their last event is worth $1M bonus + tournament prize.   More money = more girls entering pro golf = more competition = improved quality.

Yeah, and additionally, over time, the male scratch golfer will have a harder and harder time making those theoretical cuts on the f/1.4 Tour.  (Of course, also over that time, my nickname there will be less and less accurate as well ;))

[GolfLug]

BOOBS.

Has anyone said boobs create a huge disadvantage yet, or are we afraid CBS will fire us? Because they sure as hell do. The bigger they are, the less stank you can put on your drive, I assure you. They get in the way of putting too. Speaking of which, I'm hitting it about 150 yards on my best strikes as a total novice. How's that sound?

Not a disadvantage.I would think they would help you maintain your shoulder/arms triangle better. There are a myriad articles/reading material on this subject. In short it has to do with not swinging arms across the upper torso but more so with it.

A rather 'healthy' Laura Davies comes to mind who put plenty stank on the ball.

[Lihu]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rkim291968

That point has been made number of times in this thread and I agree.   As someone (iacas?) mentioned in the thread, after the top 30, quality of players falls off.   That too will change over time.   LPGA total events & prize $$$ have been growing.   Their last event is worth $1M bonus + tournament prize.   More money = more girls entering pro golf = more competition = improved quality.

Yeah, and additionally, over time, the male scratch golfer will have a harder and harder time making those theoretical cuts on the f/1.4 Tour.  (Of course, also over that time, my nickname there will be less and less accurate as well ;))

Golfing(grand)dad???

[Golfingdad]

Golfing(grand)dad???

Ummm, no.  "My" nickname meaning the nickname I gave the tour a few posts up:

New nickname for the LPGA Tour: "f/1.4".