The Stack and Tilt Golf Swing

[iacas]

So your head does dip slightly.

No. Not really. Charlie's might move an inch but even that's something he works on.

[michaeljames92]

I really wish there were stack and tilt teachers in Perth. I find that I hit the ball much more sweeter with trying to keep my weight more centred and forward, especially with irons. However I am finding that I for what ever reason am struggling to draw the ball. I am just hitting mostly pushes and small push fades and the occasional draw every now and then. I will post some videos of my swing later on(maybe friday), to see if anyone is able to give any tips. I feel as if I am really pushing my weight forward on the downswing and am told by the club pro that I have too much lateral movement with my hips. But still I cannot draw the ball.

[iacas]

mj92, you should check your hand path. If your hands don't get to where they need to be, you're going to have a hard time drawing the ball. Next on the list would be handle position.

[michaeljames92]

mj92, you should check your hand path. If your hands don't get to where they need to be, you're going to have a hard time drawing the ball. Next on the list would be handle position.

Thanks Erik. I really appreciate the advice. I was thinking hand path, and have tried having the handle forward at address. I will video my swing face on/DTL and see if anyone can make suggestions.

[BallStriker]

Question for Eric/Dave or other S&T; guys --- is the S&T; method best played with a certain grip? Given that you teach that the ball position should be middle of stance or forward (i.e., nothing back of center), I wouls assume that you would also teach (encourage) a neutral (or possibly even slightly weak) grip -- is that true?

From my perspective, I feel that stronger grips call for ball placements back of center on at least some clubs -- of course, I say this with the caveat that this is only my opinion based on my swing, and it very well may be the case that I am not sliding forward enough to make a middle/front ball position work with my strong grip. Hoping you can give some general thoughts on grip and the S&T; -- thanks so much.

[Zeph]

As far as I've read, no. And having the ball not back of center is pretty much what everyone teach. The individual part is usually if you play everything from inside the left foot, or progress from center to inside the left foot from short to long clubs. I have not understood that ball position is a vital part that S&T; encourage.

Same goes for grip. If you read the book or watch the DVDs, they say that every player got a different grip, so did all the good players through the history. You have to find one that works for you. Like with every golf teachings, the general idea is that the club is not placed in the palms. They say however that the grip is not a fundamental that needs, or positively should be, in a certain way.

The grip control the angle of the clubface, and perhaps have some impact on the handle position as well. Ball position can depend on handle position I suppose, but I don't think a certain grip calls for the ball farther back in the stance. If you like your grip, keep it and work on different ball positions, but if you get the proper amount of hip slide, back of center should not be needed.

I'd recommend you post a video also, as it helps tremendously on giving guidance. I'm not educated in S&T;, so my thoughts are purely from what I've gathered online from Erik, Dave, Mike, Andy and the others.

[Stretch]

The S&T; book recommends a fairly neutral grip, but they don't make a big thing of it. Their stated position is that grip, posture and alignment are not fundamental to the golf swing -- since the very best golfers in the world often do all of these quite differently. S&T; proposes that the true fundamentals are control of the low point of the swing, control of the curve of the ball and hitting with power.

[iacas]

Question for Eric/Dave or other S&T; guys --- is the S&T; method best played with a certain grip?

Fairly neutral. But a lot of it is within ranges. As the book says, good golfers have played with incredibly weak or incredibly strong grips. We only change the grips of players when the grip itself is causing a problem. For example, a grip that's too strong will often lead to someone taking the hands out and the club slinging behind them during the takeaway because the hinge pin is on the right side of the grip and not the top of the grip.

If anything, a slightly weaker grip is preferred, but that's only because a straight push with the face a bit too open is going to be "inside the shot cone" while a ball that starts at the target or - heaven forbid left of it - would VERY quickly leave the shot cone.

From my perspective, I feel that stronger grips call for ball placements back of center on at least some clubs -- of course, I say this with the caveat that this is only my opinion based on my swing, and it very well may be the case that I am not sliding forward enough to make a middle/front ball position work with my strong grip. Hoping you can give some general thoughts on grip and the S&T; -- thanks so much.

That's likely the case. People who play the ball back have less time to naturally square the clubface (square to where they want, I mean - don't take that as square to the target), so they tend to adopt a stronger grip. People who play the ball back ALSO tend to not get forward enough because, if they did, they might literally swing over top of the golf ball.

I'd look at your ball position with a slightly weaker grip (if indeed it is "strong"), but the bigger key would be to look at ball position first because while you can play good golf with a strong grip, you really can't play good golf hanging back.

I have not understood that ball position is a vital part that S&T; encourage.

It is and it isn't. It has to be forward of center (or center at the most back) for virtually everything, but how far forward of center varies by player and club.

[motteler621]

well i know I posted about taking lessons and that he taught me the traditional swing with the weight shifting back and then forward. Well I played a round today with it and it wasnt very productive for me. I then switched back to hitting with most of my weight on my front foot like before/ more stacked over the ball on the top of the swing and I was hitting alot better. I think I will just keep my swing the way it is with most of my weight forward and just tweak it here and there

[iacas]

I think I will just keep my swing the way it is with most of my weight forward and just tweak it here and there

Since you're not opposed to lessons, I might recommend

evolvr . We're seeing good work from the students (over 30 now) and the rate is incredibly low for what you end up getting. That goes for anyone, particularly anyone posting in this thread. But this will (I'll try) be the last time I'll mention it here.

[Joeyvee]

A) I'm glad you re-mentioned it. So don't be shy re-mentioning it in the future. I forgot about it. Finally got the book and have been dreaming about the range. Damn, it sucks getting old. hahaha.
2) I haven't finished the book so forgive me if it's in there but wedge shots? I am VERY handsy with my short wedge shots and thats the way I like it and I'm effective like that (chipping, sand, short pitches) but on longer or full wedge shots how does S&T; work? I like the ball way back for those (about dead center, I think of peeing on the ball without having to aim. lol. sorry)

[boogielicious]

Joeyvee,

S&T; works great for longer wedge shots. They are my best clubs and I find it very easy to keep the S&T; form with wedges. Most of the other teaching I've read on wedge shots all refer to weight left, same as S&T.; I keep the ball just ahead of center for most 9-LW shots and move it back to center or just back of center if I want it to go lower and have more spin.

[melchior]

Not really a question; but something I wanted to share none-the-less.

This really is only my 2nd year hitting the links; last year was horrendous. 70 on 9 holes was not unheard of for me. Earlier this summer I was averaging around 55 for a par 36 9 holes or so.

After getting the SnT book about a month ago (just under, right around the 4th of July) my ball striking improved immensely. I immediately knocked my scores down to around 50 for 9 holes; and between yesterday and today I just broke 90 for 18! I've never had this much fun on a golf course; I'd always have those blowup holes where I'd get a +4 for 2-3 holes in a row and destroy it. Now I have confidence over my ball; I have a draw (which I never thought would happen knowing how badly I over-sliced the ball before with my out to in swing); and I've gained 25-30 yards per club. My 1989 Hogan Forged have probably never been hit this well. Long par 5s are no longer "ok, lets try for a double", I have a shot at par! I still have some mishits, but I know what I'm doing wrong for the first time ever as well.

Heck, I was paired up and somebody asked *me* for a little help on their swing! And my help actually worked! Golf is now my heroin solely because of the SnT swing.

Love you guys!

[Stretch]

Right now I'm having trouble getting my head around the follow-through and rehinge in the S&T; pattern. Am working on holding the flying wedge and not flipping, but feel like I'm doing unnatural stuff after impact that is stopping the club from throwing out properly. If this image makes any sense, at the finish I feel like the left wrist has stayed flat all the way through and the heel of the right hand has pushed straight toward the target. The through-swing stops as the arms reach maximum extension at chest height -- kind of like a full punch shot. Then I look at this video of Mike Bennett and it seems to me the right wrist really rolls over pretty aggressively after impact, allowing the club to go back up the plane and him to end with the wrists fully rehinged. Do I have this right conceptually? And how should one work on this -- what's the right word -- release?



Here is the sequence clipped from the film.

[Easy]

Not really a question; but something I wanted to share none-the-less.

I'm exactly like you. I used to view par 5's with absolute dread, I love the par 5s now. Even though I'm probably not past the hacker phase, I now know why I sliced that shot, or hooked another shot. Golf is fun when you can hit the ball in the air a good distance and be able to get the ball where you aimed at. Instead of just hoping it goes in the air so you don't look too stupid.

[BadGolfer]

I recently discovered this type of swing, and I am planning on going to the range tomorrow to give it a shot. I am currently just trying to combat a slice on my drives.

So the whole point is to sit forward a bit and change your swing path (overly simplistic, I know)?

Like in this video:


They change the point where the club face contacts with the ball to a higher point in the arc. I am dubious about the geometry involved here. Wouldn't this cause the club to be open and therefore slice even more? And also, with the one plane swing, it seems like it would be more of the motion of cutting a tree down with an ax, which would go out-in even MORE and cause MORE side-spin and a larger slice.

Could someone help me understand this type of swing? Or as a beginner am I just going to confuse myself and make my game even worse?

[pixel5]

They change the point where the club face contacts with the ball to a higher point in the arc. I am dubious about the geometry involved here. Wouldn't this cause the club to be open and therefore slice even more?

No. Think about the downswing path only, and IGNORE the feet and intended target line for a minute. Consider ONLY the direction the downswing is going, and think about the clubface at the bottom of that downswing. If the club face is square to that swing path, it will SEEM open when compared to the target line. If it were parallel to the original target line, it would be closed and you would hook the ball. See ~3:10-:30 on that video for reference. Awesome video by the way, props to whoever made it. It explains S&T; perfectly and why it works and why its so repeatable.

[Joeyvee]

I'm adapting S&T; principles into my swing too and it's helped a TON. shot my lowest score ever yesterday.
I tried it once based on a video and a few small pieces of information I had and said this swing sucks, these guys are crazy. Then when I really looked at it and read the book it made a lot mroe sense and I tried it properly and its starting to work a lot better for me. So yeah. That videos cool but BUY THE BOOK. No B.S. It'll jhelp
If you're dying to get started immediately just hit a bunch of range balls with 5% more wieght on your front foot then before. I also move the ball back about half an inch now and it helps me draw the ball more. I'm going to have to adjust the handicap I have posted on this site soon :)