Padraig Harrington disqualified in Abu Dhabi

[pusher]

It's just stupid.  What if the camera had not caught it?  It happened in a split second and in that moment Harrington was unaware he'd done anything wrong.  It's the equivalent of a TV viewer calling balls and strikes. Calls should be left to those on the course, not some schmo watching TV.

[Dartguy]

Well said!  I think the douches that call in, do it only to get some satisfaction of f'ing with someone who has more talent than they ever will.  Get a life, you douchebags!

Originally Posted by PaddyHarrington

What would annoy me about this is not the fact Harry was DQ because after seeing the footage it's obvious the ball moved and the rules of golf being as they are he can't have any complaints,but what would annoy me is the little prick that rang up and notified people of it,has that cnut nothing better to be doing with his time?

I can see the bollix now as smug as fuck boasting to all his mates how he got one of the worlds top golfers disqualified,people like this are sad fucks IMHO.

p.s sorry about my foul language I'm just annoyed about this

[sacm3bill]

Originally Posted by pusher

It's just stupid.  What if the camera had not caught it?  It happened in a split second and in that moment Harrington was unaware he'd done anything wrong.  It's the equivalent of a TV viewer calling balls and strikes. Calls should be left to those on the course, not some schmo watching TV.

If the camera had not caught it, a rule still would've been broken. And it may not always be the case, but sometimes unnoticed violations benefit the offending player, at the expense of every other player in the field.

And like has been said dozens of times in the "Should viewers call in penalties" thread, trying to compare golf to other sports is a non-argument. Golf is its own sport with its own set of rules. To address your comments specifically: There is an umpire in baseball whose job it is to call balls in strikes. In golf it is the players' responsibility to call their own penalties. When they don't, and no one's around to see it, then they just got away with something, intentionally or not. Therefore the more eyes on them the better.

Re "calls should be left to those on the course", is it ok with you then if spectators alert officials? Because that happens too. If not, why not? Don't the other players still deserve to not be put at a disadvantage if a player breaks a rule that benefits that player, and only a spectator saw it?  Remember that someone's word alone doesn't have any weight, the officials will only make a ruling if there is irrefutable evidence (usually in the form of video.)

Here's the bottom line though, IMO: Of all the controversial calls in my recent memory (DJ in the bunker, Camillo with the divot, Paddy with the ball moving, Julie Inkster with the training aid), none would've been an issue if the player had simply a) known the rules, or b) called in an official to consult with. These people are professionals playing for ridiculous amounts of money - there is no reason for them not to know this stuff. If they had, they never would've been put in the situation of having a TV viewer or spectator making trouble for them.

[Dave H]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

Quote:

Originally Posted by crayputter

I don't get what the big fuss it all about....it was so obvious the ball moved when he removed his marker ! It doesn't matter if it was intentional or not, when you move the ball as you remove your marker on the green, it is a penalty. Forget about slow-mo, it was so obvious in the normal view !

Ray

Wrong.  The movement was a direct result of lifting the marker, so there would have been no penalty if he had replaced the ball.  The only thing Paddy did wrong was to not call in a rules official to make the decision.  When he saw the ball oscillate, that should have set off alarm bells.  If he waits for a ruling, he covers his ass because the RO's decision is final.  Whichever way the RO ruled, Paddy just goes with it, no penalty, and he's still playing today.

Let's just play this scenario out for a moment. Paddy is on the green and the ball oscillates. Just to be sure he calls the RO over.

RO: what happened?

PH: the ball oscillated when I picked up my marker.

RO: did the ball move back to it's original place?

PH: Yes.

RO: If the ball moved back to it's orignal spot, what's the issue?

PH: Well, actually I'm not 100%. I'm concerned that it may have moved 3 dimples but only rolled back 2 dimples. I have no way to tell, could we bring in an HD monitor and study it for a bit?

RO: Just put it back where it was and all is well.

PH: Well, I think it moved back to it's original spot. If I move it, it could be 2 dimples the other way.

RO: Either way, at this point you're screwed because everyone is now reviewing this and calling in but unfortunately we don't have a way for you to review this on the course. Just take a penalty and move on.

...

[sacm3bill]

Originally Posted by Dave H

Let's just play this scenario out for a moment. Paddy is on the green and the ball oscillates. Just to be sure he calls the RO over.

RO: what happened?

PH: the ball oscillated when I picked up my marker.

RO: did the ball move back to it's original place?

PH: Yes.

RO: If the ball moved back to it's orignal spot, what's the issue?

PH: Well, actually I'm not 100%. I'm concerned that it may have moved 3 dimples but only rolled back 2 dimples. I have no way to tell, could we bring in an HD monitor and study it for a bit?

RO: Just put it back where it was and all is well.

PH: Well, I think it moved back to it's original spot. If I move it, it could be 2 dimples the other way.

RO: Either way, at this point you're screwed because everyone is now reviewing this and calling in but unfortunately we don't have a way for you to review this on the course. Just take a penalty and move on.

Sure, that's one scenario. I'm not sure what point you're making - are you saying the above is a bad thing? Paddy was careless in removing the marker, he couldn't tell if the ball moved back to the original spot, so he takes the penalty. It's his own fault the ball moved, he gets a penalty, and moves on, as you say. That's actually the worse case scenario and better than being DQ'd. What I think is more likely to happen is either there *is* video available which means he can move the ball back where it was with no penalty, or the RO says "it's good where it is, no penalty". Either way, the RO should've been consulted and if he had Paddy wouldn't have been DQ'd.

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave H

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

Quote:

Originally Posted by crayputter

I don't get what the big fuss it all about....it was so obvious the ball moved when he removed his marker ! It doesn't matter if it was intentional or not, when you move the ball as you remove your marker on the green, it is a penalty. Forget about slow-mo, it was so obvious in the normal view !

Ray

Wrong.  The movement was a direct result of lifting the marker, so there would have been no penalty if he had replaced the ball.  The only thing Paddy did wrong was to not call in a rules official to make the decision.  When he saw the ball oscillate, that should have set off alarm bells.  If he waits for a ruling, he covers his ass because the RO's decision is final.  Whichever way the RO ruled, Paddy just goes with it, no penalty, and he's still playing today.

Let's just play this scenario out for a moment. Paddy is on the green and the ball oscillates. Just to be sure he calls the RO over.

RO: what happened?

PH: the ball oscillated when I picked up my marker.

RO: did the ball move back to it's original place?

PH: Yes.

RO: If the ball moved back to it's orignal spot, what's the issue?

PH: Well, actually I'm not 100%. I'm concerned that it may have moved 3 dimples but only rolled back 2 dimples. I have no way to tell, could we bring in an HD monitor and study it for a bit?

RO: Just put it back where it was and all is well.

PH: Well, I think it moved back to it's original spot. If I move it, it could be 2 dimples the other way.

RO: Either way, at this point you're screwed because everyone is now reviewing this and calling in but unfortunately we don't have a way for you to review this on the course. Just take a penalty and move on.

...

My point was that if he called in a rules official, there would be no penalty in either case.  All he has to do is follow whatever the RO decides is correct and there is no penalty because the movement was a direct result of lifting the ball marker.

Quote:

If a ball or ball-marker is accidentally moved in the process of lifting the ball under a Rule or marking its position, the ball or ball-marker must be replaced. There is no penalty, provided the movement of the ball or ball-marker is directly attributable to the specific act of marking the position of or lifting the ball.

[WUTiger]

Quote posted by Fourputt:

If a ball or ball-marker is accidentally moved in the process of lifting the ball under a Rule or marking its position, the ball or ball-marker must be replaced. There is no penalty, provided the movement of the ball or ball-marker is directly attributable to the specific act of marking the position of or lifting the ball.

The U.S. Open and  the British Open sometimes produce superfast dried out green conditions - this can be aggravated if the grass has actually died.  Monitoring tiny ball movements could really get exciting, with maybe a dozen players getting DQ on Sunday because their ball shifted on the hard dirt?

Maybe players should demand that the rules official watch and approve each ball replacement on the green to make sure there isn't a one-dimple oscillation. One solution, of course, would be to let the greens grow shaggy, and then the ball would be less likely to roll on replacement. But, shaggy greens evidently take a toll on birdie putts.

Could be added problems on the Champions Tour. Over-50 golfers sometime have trouble with the "yips," missing short putts. This is caused by nerve deterioration in aging individuals, leading to occasional hand tremors. Could really get ugly if spy-cam hits the Senior tour.

These phone-in things risk turning the PGA tour into a police state. I monitor federal trials on business and financial matters: If you put enough FBI agents and enforcement people into play, almost any defendant can be found to have done something "wrong."

[Stretch]

In other news from Abu Dhabi, Kaymer is going like a train and will almost certainly bump Tiger from the #2 spot in the world rankings tomorrow. Paddy remains DQed.

[BonoVox]

Originally Posted by westcyderydin

I know the rules and honesty are very important in golf, but this is going way too far.  Once the card is signed i dont think a penalty should be able to be imposed on that round...if the other players sign the card, then why not keep it at that?  Its getting dumb.

Good point. They played 18 holes with a player who attests the score plus an official. All challenges in before card is signed or done. Even with Dustin they caught him before card was signed so that was legit. Cost him the championship but did not DQ him.

You keep DQ'in your stars because they get most coverage you hurt the sport in the end. How are the fans rewarded when PH is DG'ed?

[Chris G]

2 times in as many weeks people are calling or emailing in and getting players DQ. Fair enough Harry made a mistake and said in the interview afterwards he thought it had returned to the exact spot as the way he lines his ball up had not changed on the line. In normal motion you could not tell it was onlywhen played in slow motion you could tell the ball never returned.

Its a shame, for someone to pick up on this as it happens must of sat there for ages checking on slow mo and rewind, I can imagine it now some old person sat there with the family with nothing better to do but try and make themselves look important in front of everyone in the household once again. Must of taken ages to boot the laptop/PC up and get started.

Fair enough Harry f**cked up but the Officials have said the amount of phone ins / Emails / Twitter replies they get now is getting out of control of people ringing up trying to have there say on what happened or what they saw and has been missed.

No regard to what its costing a player or their familes or other people around them.

I salute you all, just because you are shite on the course doesnt giveyou a right to spoil it for others.

[jamo]

Originally Posted by Stretch

In other news from Abu Dhabi, Kaymer is going like a train and will almost certainly bump Tiger from the #2 spot in the world rankings tomorrow. Paddy remains DQed.

I'm a Tiger fan, but if I had to pick one guy to be #1 in the world it'd be Kaymer. He's been playing absolutely lights-out.

[crayputter]

Question. If you lift your marker after lining up your putt, and you move the ball in the process. Penalty or not ?

[colin007]

this is the kind of thing that alienates the casual golf fan...

[zeg]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

My point was that if he called in a rules official, there would be no penalty in either case.  All he has to do is follow whatever the RO decides is correct and there is no penalty because the movement was a direct result of lifting the ball marker.

Heck, since it was a rule that required him to replace it without penalty, he'd have been ok if he'd simply picked it up and put it back, wouldn't he?  That makes it all the sillier.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris G

No regard to what its costing a player or their familes or other people around them.

Yeah, those poor golf pros, not following the rules and then having penalties imposed.  What a travesty!

Originally Posted by crayputter

Question. If you lift your marker after lining up your putt, and you move the ball in the process. Penalty or not ?

If it is directly attributable to the marking or replacing process, then there is no penalty but you *must* put it back where it belongs.  If it is not a direct result of the marking or replacing, then there is the usual penalty for moving your ball.

[jamo]

Originally Posted by Chris G

No regard to what its costing a player or their familes or other people around them.

Yeah that Paddy Harrington, he's really strapped for cash.

It's easy to say "look at all these jobless fatasses sitting on their couches, calling in penalties," but rules are rules, and when a few strokes can cost you and your fellow Tour players thousands of dollars, I think upholding the rules fully is something not to take lightly.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by zeg

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

My point was that if he called in a rules official, there would be no penalty in either case.  All he has to do is follow whatever the RO decides is correct and there is no penalty because the movement was a direct result of lifting the ball marker.

Heck, since it was a rule that required him to replace it without penalty, he'd have been ok if he'd simply picked it up and put it back, wouldn't he?  That makes it all the sillier.

The only problem is if he did that and then the video showed that he was right in the first place and the ball didn't actually move, then he'd have been guilty of moving the ball when it wasn't allowed, and the same end would have resulted.  Because of the the uncertainty of whether the ball moved or not, he still needed to bring a rules official into the case.  Then whatever the ruling, he is safe.

[2bGood]

If you need technology to make the call (slow mo replay) then this does not seem within the spirit of the rules. The really dumb thing is if he had remarked his ball after the alleged movement there would have been no penalty.

[2bGood]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

Quote:

Originally Posted by zeg

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

My point was that if he called in a rules official, there would be no penalty in either case.  All he has to do is follow whatever the RO decides is correct and there is no penalty because the movement was a direct result of lifting the ball marker.

Heck, since it was a rule that required him to replace it without penalty, he'd have been ok if he'd simply picked it up and put it back, wouldn't he?  That makes it all the sillier.

The only problem is if he did that and then the video showed that he was right in the first place and the ball didn't actually move, then he'd have been guilty of moving the ball when it wasn't allowed, and the same end would have resulted.  Because of the the uncertainty of whether the ball moved or not, he still needed to bring a rules official into the case.  Then whatever the ruling, he is safe.

Why not just bring the official over on every hole for every shot for a ruling so a phantom penalty can not be called in later - that would be GREAT for golf.