The Dan Plan - 10,000 Hours to Become a Pro Golfer (Dan McLaughlin)

[18rounds]

Hmmmm, so you've read this thread but you haven't really read much of what Dan has written (except from a distance), and you can't for the life of you see a reason for

I have read quite a bit. I did not find the experiment until maybe a year ago and I skimmed through his blog up until that point. Since then I have followed him on twitter and read most of his posts. I certainly agree that he along with many people on here (certainly including me) does not always do the right thing for his golf game. But I don't see why that should make me actively root against him. For me, my main takeaway from the project so far is just how much talent the pros have. It's easy for an armature golfer a to think that they have a lot in common with the guys on the tour. When I see Lebron go to the basket for a dunk or clay Mathews rush a qb I would never say "I could do that if I would just practice" but somehow when I watch Kutcher make a great approach shot it's easy to think "Hey I could make that shot." Part of this is because when I see the pro land within 3' of the hole from 100 yards out, I have made that shot... Once. :) If anything the Dan Plan makes me realize how huge the talent gap is between the armature and the pro. Nice thing about golf is that the amature can enjoy the game just as much as the pro. Maybe more because I can knock off the practice session when boredom sets in. Now, if he was being supported by tax money I may have a different take away.

[Lihu]

Unfortunately, the general public would not see it the way you do. He's good at marketing, but that's bad for real aspiring golfers. Btw, pros make much tighter groupings than we do. ;-)

[RandallT]

I have read quite a bit. I did not find the experiment until maybe a year ago and I skimmed through his blog up until that point. Since then I have followed him on twitter and read most of his posts. I certainly agree that he along with many people on here (certainly including me) does not always do the right thing for his golf game. But I don't see why that should make me actively root against him. For me, my main takeaway from the project so far is just how much talent the pros have. It's easy for an armature golfer a to think that they have a lot in common with the guys on the tour. When I see Lebron go to the basket for a dunk or clay Mathews rush a qb I would never say "I could do that if I would just practice" but somehow when I watch Kutcher make a great approach shot it's easy to think "Hey I could make that shot." Part of this is because when I see the pro land within 3' of the hole from 100 yards out, I have made that shot... Once. :) If anything the Dan Plan makes me realize how huge the talent gap is between the armature and the pro. Nice thing about golf is that the amature can enjoy the game just as much as the pro. Maybe more because I can knock off the practice session when boredom sets in. Now, if he was being supported by tax money I may have a different take away.

Totally agree re taxes. Regarding people who actively root against Dan, I don't have a problem with that. Same for people who root for him, although I chuckle now that they must be naive at this point to think he's got a chance. I'm more interested in analyzing the experiment at this point. I don't really care to root for or against. Any negativity on my part is strictly viewing his stated goals, his stated results, and interpreting how he is conveying his journey.

[johnclayton1982]

Quote:

Given how he's conducted the experiment, the results will prove little to nothing and it will equate to little more than some guy bilking others out of money and time so he could not work and play golf.

"Bilk" is a ridiculous word to use.  And it seems like he is working pretty hard to me, TBH.  Some people have fun jobs.  He is one of them.

I really don't get the anger, except maybe because of envy.  He is putting out content and he is trying hard.  People who respect that or who find him interesting donate because they want it  to keep going or because they enjoy consuming the content.

Considering he has stuck with it over multiple years, lined up sponsors, and done all of this, I think implying he is lazy "could not work and play golf" is absurd.  You may not like it, you may not think he has a chance (and he has no chance) but if others want to donate to him so he can pursue his dream, all the best to him.

Now, if he was outright lying (for example, saying he shot 66 and is "almost there") that would be "bilking" donations.  But he isn't.

He has no chance of his stated goal.  But he has given it a hard try (which is more than I can say for most about their dreams).  If others want to throw him a little something, what business is it of yours?  He has created a successful business somewhat.

I take my hat completely off to him.  Managed to figure out how to chase his dream.  He may not get his dream, but that's irrelevant.

Please note I don't think he has a chance, at this point on this trajectory, to make the tour.  However, I don't think he is a bad guy or doing something wrong and I'm struggling to see how anyone could reach that conclusion.

[flopster]

"Bilk" is a ridiculous word to use.  And it seems like he is working pretty hard to me, TBH.  Some people have fun jobs.  He is one of them.

I really don't get the anger, except maybe because of envy.  He is putting out content and he is trying hard.  People who respect that or who find him interesting donate because they want it  to keep going or because they enjoy consuming the content.

Considering he has stuck with it over multiple years, lined up sponsors, and done all of this, I think implying he is lazy "could not work and play golf" is absurd.  You may not like it, you may not think he has a chance (and he has no chance) but if others want to donate to him so he can pursue his dream, all the best to him.

Now, if he was outright lying (for example, saying he shot 66 and is "almost there") that would be "bilking" donations.  But he isn't.

He has no chance of his stated goal.  But he has given it a hard try (which is more than I can say for most about their dreams).  If others want to throw him a little something, what business is it of yours?  He has created a successful business somewhat.

I take my hat completely off to him.  Managed to figure out how to chase his dream.  He may not get his dream, but that's irrelevant.

Please note I don't think he has a chance, at this point on this trajectory, to make the tour.  However, I don't think he is a bad guy or doing something wrong and I'm struggling to see how anyone could reach that conclusion.

By reading his blog and mapping his score entries many on here have noticed he has not posted all of his rounds, also and probably even more telling is Dans "Anti" cap, his has an unusually large disparity compared to golfers in all handicap ranges, that is probably the strongest evidence of him manipulating his handicap to keep interest up.

[johnclayton1982]

Quote:

By reading his blog and mapping his score entries many on here have noticed he has not posted all of his rounds, also and probably even more telling is Dans "Anti" cap, his has an unusually large disparity compared to golfers in all handicap ranges, that is probably the strongest evidence of him manipulating his handicap to keep interest up.

Maybe, who knows.  But to say the guy is "bilking" people out of money is ridiculous.

[Pretzel]

Maybe, who knows.  But to say the guy is "bilking" people out of money is ridiculous.

You said yourself it was bilking people out of their money if he was outright lying, and we showed you he was. I'll look a couple things up and post the probability of a 2.6 handicap shooting 3 or 4 rounds in the 80's (his tournament scores) in a row to show you how blatant it is that he has is lying about his handicap.

[johnclayton1982]

Quote:

You said yourself it was bilking people out of their money if he was outright lying, and we showed you he was. I'll look a couple things up and post the probability of a 2.6 handicap shooting 3 or 4 rounds in the 80's (his tournament scores) in a row to show you how blatant it is that he has is lying about his handicap.

You didn't "show" me anything.  One previous poster suggested he might not turn all his rounds in, and you have promised something in the future which you may or may not post later.

If you show me that this is a deliberate fraud (as you suggest, above), I'll agree with "bilk".

Until then, its people paying somebody something for generating a ton of content.

[18rounds]

"Bilk" is a ridiculous word to use.  And it seems like he is working pretty hard to me, TBH.  Some people have fun jobs.  He is one of them. I really don't get the anger, except maybe because of envy.  He is putting out content and he is trying hard.  People who respect that or who find him interesting donate because they want it  to keep going or because they enjoy consuming the content. Considering he has stuck with it over multiple years, lined up sponsors, and done all of this, I think implying he is lazy "could not work and play golf" is absurd.  You may not like it, you may not think he has a chance (and he has no chance) but if others want to donate to him so he can pursue his dream, all the best to him. Now, if he was outright lying (for example, saying he shot 66 and is "almost there") that would be "bilking" donations.  But he isn't. He has no chance of his stated goal.  But he has given it a hard try (which is more than I can say for most about their dreams).  If others want to throw him a little something, what business is it of yours?  He has created a successful business somewhat. I take my hat completely off to him.  Managed to figure out how to chase his dream.  He may not get his dream, but that's irrelevant. Please note I don't think he has a chance, at this point on this trajectory, to make the tour.  However, I don't think he is a bad guy or doing something wrong and I'm struggling to see how anyone could reach that conclusion.

This is what I was trying to say. Envy is a suit that seldom fits well.

[MS256]

The people that were dumb enough to donate money weren't going to hold onto that money very long anyway. "A foole and his money be soone at debate: which after with sorow repents him too late." (Thomas Tusser 1557)

[iacas]

This is what I was trying to say. Envy is a suit that seldom fits well.

I'm not envious.

I find the whole thing disappointing, and sad.

[Shorty]

Here's his chance to meet @Shorty

Or maybe . ???

You can just imagine the opening to the story on SBS Insight:

"Well, if you've ever considered quitting your day job to compete on one of the world's biggest sporting stages against the likes of Tiger Woods and Rory McIlroy, you're about to meet someone who's done that.

Meet Dan McLaughlin blah blah blah.......down to a  scratch handicap after only two years, something most golfers can only imagine.........so  and so says he's not only got the game but also the mental fortitude to mix it with the game's great...etc. etc.

I'm almost sick just thinking about it.

[Lihu]

You can just imagine the opening to the story on SBS Insight:

"Well, if you've ever considered quitting your day job to compete on one of the world's biggest sporting stages against the likes of Tiger Woods and Rory McIlroy, you're about to meet someone who's done that.

Meet Dan McLaughlin blah blah blah.......down to a  scratch handicap after only two years, something most golfers can only imagine.........so  and so says he's not only got the game but also the mental fortitude to mix it with the game's great...etc. etc.

I'm almost sick just thinking about it.

Only "almost"?

[narmno]

What have we learned from this?

1. If you practice for 10,000 hours you can become good at anything.

Jk. Here are some of the real lessons:

1. Never follow anyone else's advice.

Never trust what an "expert" tells you. Unless you're dealing with something repeatable that he's seen before, he doesn't know better than you.

Instead: Gather data. Understand the feedback other people give you. Critically evaluate the suggestions of others.

Dan's mistake: Dan's golf coach advised Dan to spend months doing nothing but putting. Dan failed to critically evaluate this advice. He failed to experiment on his own. Instead, he blindly followed his coach, losing months of his life in the process. Simply pitiful. Once Dan started to practice his long game, he realized he had made a mistake.

2. Be willing to admit you suck (at something)

Many people have trouble overcoming challenges due to a weird, distorted view of the world. Often it's because they're unwilling to admit that they suck at something.

Instead: Realize that you're a good person who isn't perfect. Be happy with what you have and be willing to fix your problems, one at a time, in the right order. If you suck at something, don't let that hold you down, but at the same time admit it to yourself and be realistic.

Dan's mistake: Dan has said that every day he thinks about making it to the Tour. This isn't realistic, and it causes him to have emotional breakdowns, fail to set clear goals, ignore negative feedback and have an all-around poor mental game. (For example: mentally replaying one shot from one bad tournament round for 18 hours.) Worse yet, he may be spending years on a journey he will regret later.

3. Use the right metrics to measure things

Sociologists, journalists, writers, etc. fall prey to bad statistics. Don't be one of them.

Instead: If you want to use numbers, make sure you have enough data (so that you're not just looking at randomness) and don't cherry-pick statistics that make you feel good. In golf, you should be using fine-grained statistics such as strokes gained.

Dan's mistake: Dan constantly uses a single good round to justify how well he is doing. Dan has had one under-par round (on a short easy course he's played maybe hundreds of times) and uses it to justify that he'll get to Tour-level, but it means nothing: if you want to evaluate yourself based on the scores you shoot, you should look at averages, not the extremes, and you should ideally look at competitive rounds. To prove that Vision54 was a success, he "simulated" a round in his head (shooting a 74). Again, bullshit. The simple statistics he uses (greens in regulation, putts per round, etc.) are, combined with his poor mental game (see above), worse than useless.

If Dan did start using good statistics such as strokes gained, he would likely not even dare to analyze them, since they'd prove he's not making good progress.

4. Malcolm Gladwell is nonsense

Malcolm Gladwell is like a woman giving a TED Talk about empowerment. He preaches to the choir with feel-good drivel which sounds convincing to the untrained ear.

Repeating this type of nonsense may give you applause, a professorship and a NY Times bestseller. But their actual content (I'm talking both Gladwell's and the woman's) is destructive.

10,000 hours is bullshit. Some of us knew it before. All of us should know it know.

[nevets88]

If I had to do a Dan Plan - I wouldn't, the premise is flawed to begin with - I'd first change the target goal. See how good one can get with 10K hours. Then I'd do research into what are the typical ways of improving and what are the deliberate practice methods that are different from the same old same old, not from academics, but from golf pros. I'd look into all the "hot zones" of teaching, visit each one, and then pick one I'd stick with. Another thing I'd do is I'd try and get to know 3-4 swing geeks - scratch or plus handicappers who don't teach, but are have done a deep dive into all the schools of instruction. This would be sort of an advisory group.

1. This would be terrible marketing. It doesn't have the schtick that make it to the PGA tour does. It would never take off.
2. No way this is affordable on Dan Plan funding.

[David in FL]

1. Never follow anyone else's advice.

Never trust what an "expert" tells you. Unless you're dealing with something repeatable that he's seen before, he doesn't know better than you.

Nonsense.  There's certainly good and bad "advice" to be found, and it must be evaluated, but without accepting that there exist experts in virtually every arena that know more than you, you'll never benefit from teachers, coaches, or mentors, whether in sport, business, or life.....

2. Be willing to admit you suck (at something)

Not quite.  Not having the talent to reach the highest levels of achievement in something isn't quite the same as "sucking" at it.  Dan's improved his game significantly.  I just don't believe that he'll reach his goal, not because he "sucks" at golf, but he seems to be lacking the extreme level of talent and athleticism required to complete at the level he's set for himself.

3. Use the right metrics to measure things

Sociologists, journalists, writers, etc. fall prey to bad statistics. Don't be one of them.

Agree.  Though I don't necessarily know that we learned that from Dan and his efforts.....

4. Malcolm Gladwell is nonsense

10,000 hours is bullshit. Some of us knew it before. All of us should know it know.

We don't learn any such thing (note, I'm NOT defending Gladwell) from one apparent failure in one poorly contrived "experiment"......

[Golfingdad]

Nonsense.  There's certainly good and bad "advice" to be found, and it must be evaluated, but without accepting that there exist experts in virtually every arena that know more than you, you'll never benefit from teachers, coaches, or mentors, whether in sport, business, or life.....

Not quite.  Not having the talent to reach the highest levels of achievement in something isn't quite the same as "sucking" at it.  Dan's improved his game significantly.  I just don't believe that he'll reach his goal, not because he "sucks" at golf, but he seems to be lacking the extreme level of talent and athleticism required to complete at the level he's set for himself.

Agree.  Though I don't necessarily know that we learned that from Dan and his efforts.....

We don't learn any such thing (note, I'm NOT defending Gladwell) from one apparent failure in one poorly contrived "experiment"......

I'll defend him ;) ...

A)  The 10,000 hour theory is NOT even Gladwell's to begin with, it's Anders Erikkson's.

and B) The part of the theory that Gladwell mentions in his book doesn't even apply to a guy like Dan anyway.  It was developed from working backwards using a bunch of very well accomplished violinists .. not random joes who have never even seen a violin or a piece of sheet music.

---

Not at all suggesting that I think that he has a chance of succeeding, however, I just want to point out that he is BARELY past the halfway point of his experiment.  He has 4,794 hours remaining.  Think about how much you play or practice and figure how long it would take to reach that number.  Add in the fact that I expect a lot of you hope (and dare I say "plan") to get better over that time period and I think that we are probably jumping to conclusions just a hair early.

Me, for example:  I have been taking lessons seriously over the course of the last 2 years and have dropped my handicap by almost 4 points.  (a bit over 10 to start, 6.8 and dropping currently)  My routine is to try and practice about twice a week (one hour each) and I play, if I'm lucky, twice a month.  That is about 16 hours a month, so about 200 hours a year.

I've improved considerably over the course of my last 400 hours.  As much as we like to harass Dan, I think he could all agree that he has improved a ton from never having played to his current handicap (however vain it may be).  Now, consider that he's got almost 5000 hours left - the equivalent of 24 years for me at my current rate - and I think that it's still too early to make a definitive statement about his ceiling.

It's fair for us to be skeptical (very skeptical) but nothing is in stone just yet.

[Lihu]

@narmno that was a nice writeup. Item 3 with his 70 round was something that at stuck out to me. When I hear about aspiring pros, a good round on a local course is in the low 60s. Tour pros need to shoot mid to high 60s on occasion on tour difficulty courses to stay high enough on the money list just to keep their cards. I also agree with @David in FL that Dan does not suck at golf, but he'll never be even close to getting his card, much less be able to keep it through the first year.