3 wood off the tee and accuracy by using it....how?

[In the woods]

You always hear about people using three woods off the tee for more accuracy.  In my case I am just about as unpredictable with it as I am my driver.  How is it that people are so much more accurate with the three wood?  Every time that I put my three wood on the tee, its a wicked slice.  Off the deck its about 80% straight, 20% WTF.

Does anyone have any tips on how to increase three wood accuracy? Distance is not the problem, I would gladly give up distance to gain accuracy.

[Long Ball Larry]

Lower lofted clubs put more sidespin on the ball, increasing the likelihood of a hook or slice. Theoretically, we should all be more accurate with a three-wood off the tee. You're probably taking the club too far inside on the backswing and coming over the top on the way back down and leaving the clubface open at impact. Try to replicate your off-the-deck swing when you're hitting three-wood off the tee.

[Paradox]

a lot of people also swing a little bit easier because they don't have "driver in their hands so they have to hit it really far"

[Shindig]

This is another one of those pieces of lore from days gone by. It used to be that a driver was effectively a low-lofted wood, with such a low loft that you could only hit it off a tee. So the more loft on a 3-wood made it more accurate due to less sidespin. Nowadays, the technology in drivers is amazing, and they're far more forgiving than fairway woods (which can't take advantage of the size that drivers need to be for this advantage, without being made unhittable off the turf). In the 2008 U.S. Open, Phil Mickelson played two rounds with a super strong 3-wood instead of a driver - I think it was 11.5 degrees. He played with Adam Scott and Tiger Woods, who each outdrove him in distance and hit more fairways than he did. If he had asked me - and I don't know why he would have - I would have suggested that he take a driver with the same loft and a shorter shaft, if that's what he wanted to do. He didn't hit it off the turf, so he might as well take advantage of the parts that are driver-specific. Finally, the bit about being more accurate because you aren't trying to kill it is true also.

[GaijinGolfer]

Originally Posted by Long Ball Larry

Lower lofted clubs put more sidespin on the ball, increasing the likelihood of a hook or slice. Theoretically, we should all be more accurate with a three-wood off the tee. You're probably taking the club too far inside on the backswing and coming over the top on the way back down and leaving the clubface open at impact. Try to replicate your off-the-deck swing when you're hitting three-wood off the tee.

Wrong.  Loft has no effect on sidespin.

[newtogolf]

My understanding is that the higher the loft, the more backspin it creates, and thus reduces the amount of sidespin.

Originally Posted by TitleistWI

Wrong.  Loft has no effect on sidespin.

[THR3E]

more backspin = less side spin

[jshots]

Can someone explain how more backspin = less sidespin? I wouldn't think more backspin would cause there to be less sidespin.

[Wallstreet]

Originally Posted by THR3E

more backspin = less side spin

exactly.  what are you more likely to slice: a pw or a 3 iron?

And like others have said you don't swing as hard with a 3 wood off the tee as you do a driver.

[clubhousehero]

it also has a shorter and oftentimes heavier shaft.

the shorter shaft will make it easier to square the club face.  the heavier shaft slows down some people's swings and improves tempo.

Also, 3w isn't as long (distance wise) as driver.  So balls hit off line won't go as far into the rough/trees as driver.

[jshots]

I don't really agree that more backspin causes less sidespin, unless you can show me something that says i'm wrong. I do imagine lower lofted clubs have higher side spin though because they compress the ball more and therefore the ball is probably on the clubface a fraction of a second longer.

If nothing else for a ball that isn't going where you want the further it travels the further off target its going to be.

[max power]

Arguing with science?  Look at a launch monitor-lower lofts, less backspin, higher lofts, more backspin.  The greater the force the ball is generating spinning backwards the less the force will be spinning the ball sideways.  As someone said, it's why a 3 iron slices a lot easier than a PW.  I agree that modern drivers are at least as if not more forgiving than modern 3 woods-but the backspin thing is definitely true.  At least-my slice with a driver is a lot bigger than my slice with a 3 wood, even bigger than my slice with a 5 wood, etc.

Originally Posted by jshots

I don't really agree that more backspin causes less sidespin, unless you can show me something that says i'm wrong. I do imagine lower lofted clubs have higher side spin though because they compress the ball more and therefore the ball is probably on the clubface a fraction of a second longer.

If nothing else for a ball that isn't going where you want the further it travels the further off target its going to be.

[LankyLefty]

Their is no such thing as backspin and sidespin really the ball spins on an axis the more tilted the axis from paralell the more the ball curves. The optimal axis is going to be parallel to the ground making the shot strait. The more lofted a club, the more force it is going to exert directly back on the ball thus reducing the effects of any sideways force. Go take your pitching wedge one day and try to hit a wicked hook or slice... its not nearly as easy as with a driver.

A 3 wood should be easier to control in theory however a 3 wood is really quite similar to a driver so if you struggle with the driver you will struggle with the 3 wood. However a 3 wood should give you a tighter spread then a driver each hit equally.

[saevel25]

It has to do with how long the club is and the lie of the club. If you have a longer club it will have a flatter swing plane. This causes more side spin, because your axis of rotation has flattened out. Lets say Z is up and X-y is horizontal, Your going from a more upright, Z-X plane to a more horizontal X-Y Plane. This changes the angle of side rotation, as well as the amount of side rotation due to the increase ball speed. So if you took a 60 degree lob wedge, stick it on a 3-iron length shaft, you will get the nearly the same side spin as a 3-iron.

[Stretch]

Originally Posted by LankyLefty

Their is no such thing as backspin and sidespin really the ball spins on an axis the more tilted the axis from paralell the more the ball curves. The optimal axis is going to be parallel to the ground making the shot strait. The more lofted a club, the more force it is going to exert directly back on the ball thus reducing the effects of any sideways force. Go take your pitching wedge one day and try to hit a wicked hook or slice... its not nearly as easy as with a driver.

This is mostly correct.

As a general rule the ball will travel 0.7% off line per 1 degree tilt in spin axis, which is to say 0.7 yards sideways per 100 yards carry.

And yes it is true that there is a "sidespin" component (manifest as a further tilting of the spin axis) due to horizontal gear effect on off-center hits -- and that this is more pronounced with lower lofted clubs. But the main reason that longer clubs curve further offline is due to the shape of the D-plane.

To paraphrase the much longer and more comprehensive Trackman explanation: For a driver, the D-plane forms a more narrow ‘wedge’ than for, say, a 6 iron. This is because the club loft is lower with a driver. So for any given difference between face angle and club path in the swing, the D-plane will be tilted more for the driver than for the 6 iron. As a rule of thumb, for a 6 iron the ball’s spin axis will be tilted two times the difference between the face angle and the club path, whereas for the driver, the ball’s spin axis will be tilted 4 times the difference between the club path and the face angle. So if face angle is 5° and club path is 3°, then for a driver the spin axis will be around 8°, whereas for a 6 iron the spin axis would be around 4°.

Originally Posted by saevel25

So if you took a 60 degree lob wedge, stick it on a 3-iron length shaft, you will get the nearly the same side spin as a 3-iron.

No, you won't.

[saevel25]

To paraphrase the much longer and more comprehensive Trackman explanation: For a driver, the D-plane forms a more narrow ‘wedge’ than for, say, a 6 iron. This is because the club loft is lower with a driver. So for any given difference between face angle and club path in the swing, the D-plane will be tilted more for the driver than for the 6 iron. As a rule of thumb, for a 6 iron the ball’s spin axis will be tilted two times the difference between the face angle and the club path, whereas for the driver, the ball’s spin axis will be tilted 4 times the difference between the club path and the face angle. So if face angle is 5° and club path is 3°, then for a driver the spin axis will be around 8°, whereas for a 6 iron the spin axis would be around 4°.

Explain the D-plane and the this wedge? I get were your saying in general, but visually i do not get your concept of the D-plane or Wedge. If your graph above is correct, the D-plane would be the face on view of the golf swing.

[Stretch]

Have a look at this for the general concept of the D-Plane.

I'll come back to the specific bit about spin loft/shape of the plane when I have some more time later.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Wallstreet

exactly.  what are you more likely to slice: a pw or a 3 iron?

Yes, because the only difference between shots hit with a PW and a 3-iron are backspin rates.

Originally Posted by LankyLefty

Their is no such thing as backspin and sidespin really the ball spins on an axis the more tilted the axis from paralell the more the ball curves.

You can still consider backspin and sidespin as component vectors in the "spin axis" (and speed - creating a velocity vector of "direction and speed").

Reasons why it's easier to slice a driver than a PW:

1. The ball hit with the driver travels farther.
2. The ball hit with the driver has more speed. Ever try to throw a 50 MPH curve ball?
3. The driver has less loft, so even if a ball is hit with a driver traveling 10 degrees left and a pitching wedge traveling 10 degrees left, the driver will transfer more of its energy into spin energy. It'll have "more sidespin" or a more tilted spin axis. Simple physics.
4. The plane is flatter. The flatter the plane, the easier it is to add side spin with slight errors in ball placement.

Watch this video and pay attention to 1:31 to 2:00.

Originally Posted by Stretch

To paraphrase the much longer and more comprehensive Trackman explanation: For a driver, the D-plane forms a more narrow ‘wedge’ than for, say, a 6 iron. This is because the club loft is lower with a driver. So for any given difference between face angle and club path in the swing, the D-plane will be tilted more for the driver than for the 6 iron. As a rule of thumb, for a 6 iron the ball’s spin axis will be tilted two times the difference between the face angle and the club path, whereas for the driver, the ball’s spin axis will be tilted 4 times the difference between the club path and the face angle. So if face angle is 5° and club path is 3°, then for a driver the spin axis will be around 8°, whereas for a 6 iron the spin axis would be around 4°.

That's an important thing to grasp but also one that's a bit tougher to grasp.

Let me put what you just wrote another way.

Let's imagine you strike two clubs with a horizontal path. The base of the triangle is parallel to the ground. The direction the face is pointing (let's assume it's located directly above the path line for this first example) is the second side of the triangle (we don't care about the third side). So with a driver you have a "triangle" or a wedge that's about 12 degrees. With a PW or something it's perhaps 35 degrees. Picture both of these wedges oriented away from you directly down the middle of the fairway.

Now, leaving the direction of the face pointing in the same direction, mentally grab the tail end of the base line - the swing path line - and point it 10 degrees to the left. Consider how "tilted" the face of the triangle (or the plane) connecting these two lines would be. With the pitching wedge, the plane will tilt very little. With the driver, the plane will tilt quite a bit.