Lara disqualified after caddie tried to hide club

[VoidOfEnigmas]

i've had a caddie for a couple amateur events for fun mainly. Always the players responsibility to make sure his caddie is acting correctly and the bag is ready to go at the beginning of the round. Ultimately the blame is on Lara for having 15 clubs but trying to hide it is dishonest. He deserves the dq for his caddies actions unfortunately even if he didn't know what he was doing.

[newtogolf]

Caddies that go out with course members on regular rounds or tournament rounds are employees of the course/club and "rented" (for lack of better term) by the members.  Course caddies typically carry a golfers bag, help on course management, locating mishit golf balls and reading the greens if asked.  Course caddies are totally different than caddies a pro golfer employs.

Pro caddies have a number of responsibilities, one of which is to count the clubs in the bag before reaching the first tee box.

Originally Posted by preisman

I have never used a caddie, especially in a tournement. Has anyone? If so, what goes on before the round? You talk about your plan, practice shots using your clubs, make sure you have tees, gloves and what ever else might be needed. You think at some point, maybe the practice part, someone might count the clubs. Like I said, I never been in this situation.

I would be furious. The caddie would be fired. If it was brought up immediately, then all is fine. It is on the golfer to make sure everything is squared away.

[NM Golf]

They just announced on the Golf Channel that his caddy has been banned from the European Tour. Wow

[newtogolf]

I guess he'll be moving to the United States unless the PGA Tour bans him as well.

Originally Posted by NM Golf

They just announced on the Golf Channel that his caddy has been banned from the European Tour. Wow

[B-Con]

According to the rules it was.

That's vague. It what was what? For either case, it's not clear. Both would require judgment calls outside the literal interpretation of the rules.

[newtogolf]

The penalty of disqualification was imposed under Ruler 33-7 with Paramor and TournamentDirector, David Williams believing a serious attempt to circumvent the Rules was made by the caddie.  "The player is responsible for any breach of the Rules by his caddie, leaving the European Tour's Rules Committee no option but to disqualify Jose Manuel.  Following an interview with Jose Manuel Lara, it was established that he had NO proior knowledge of the 15th club in his bag, or the attempt to dispoe of the 15th club.

I read in a different article that the caddy was running late because he was stuck in a traffic jam and actually ran the last 3K to the course to get there on time.  He barely made it on time and was so stressed about being late he never checked Laras bag.

[B-Con]

The penalty of disqualification was imposed under Ruler 33-7 with Paramor and TournamentDirector, David Williams believing a serious attempt to circumvent the Rules was made by the caddie.  "The player is responsible for any breach of the Rules by his caddie, leaving the European Tour's Rules Committee no option but to disqualify Jose Manuel.  Following an interview with Jose Manuel Lara, it was established that he had NO proior knowledge of the 15th club in his bag, or the attempt to dispoe of the 15th club.

I don't know about "serious attempt". He fessed up on the same hole, seemingly pretty quickly. Are DQs handed out to people who try to sneakily break a rule, but eventually call themselves out? What about a foot wedge that a player later admits to after holing out? There are rules to handle that sort of thing. I can see wanting to make an example out of would-be cheaters, but that seems best handled by at the organization level, not the tournament level. Banning the caddie fulfilled that purpose. 33-7 gave the official the ability to hand out a DQ, not an obligation to do it. It was definitely a judgment call (and yes, arguably a good one), but it seems safe to say that not every official would have made that same decision.

[turtleback]

Originally Posted by newtogolf

Caddies that go out with course members on regular rounds or tournament rounds are employees of the course/club and "rented" (for lack of better term) by the members.  Course caddies typically carry a golfers bag, help on course management, locating mishit golf balls and reading the greens if asked.  Course caddies are totally different than caddies a pro golfer employs.

Pro caddies have a number of responsibilities, one of which is to count the clubs in the bag before reaching the first tee box.

The rules make no distinctions between caddies that you get assigned at your club or caddies that are your full-time employee on a pro tour.  No matter where the caddy comes from the player is responsible for his actions.

[woltaire]

The first thing that I would try to teach my caddie is how to cheat in a creative way.

I don't think it's very creative to hide an extra golf club in the bushes...

That's pretty stupid with all cameras around you and professional flight partners that run after you.

The proper solution might have been to pull out the extra club with another club that has to be used by the player.

Then when he puts the other club back in the bag the extra club vanishes into the caddies trouser leg.

The caddie then has to hobble continously but he could fall after some steps and behave as if he would be injured...

They instantly drive the caddie with a cart to the club house for medical care.

He disappears in the toilet and pulls the extra club out of his trouser leg then might be able to flush it down somehow...

If that doesn't work he should give it to the president of the Golf Club and say: "Oh, I've found that on the toilet. Maybe someone has lost it..."

I think with such an eye-catching performance in front of public and people getting pulled into the chances to get caught while doing it are less,

because people expect you to hide somewhere when you do something illegal...

But if you make it that complicated that noone actually understands what you are doing, you will never get caught...yeah!

Apart from that when poeple get involved they don' react because they get fear by themselves.

Watch the Marx Brothers for more information...

[mtsalmela80]

what if someone writes down a 3 when they took a 4? then signs the card isnt that a dq? intentional rule breaking should always be a dq. judgement call outside the literal bounds of the rules or not. in some cases an honest mistake can warrant a dq, but a malicious one should always be one!

i think when it comes to the pga, euro tour, honesty js always the best policy.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by B-Con

I don't know about "serious attempt". He fessed up on the same hole, seemingly pretty quickly. Are DQs handed out to people who try to sneakily break a rule, but eventually call themselves out? What about a foot wedge that a player later admits to after holing out? There are rules to handle that sort of thing. I can see wanting to make an example out of would-be cheaters, but that seems best handled by at the organization level, not the tournament level. Banning the caddie fulfilled that purpose.

33-7 gave the official the ability to hand out a DQ, not an obligation to do it. It was definitely a judgment call (and yes, arguably a good one), but it seems safe to say that not every official would have made that same decision.

It's very simple to me.

He not only violated the rule (by having the 15th club), but he tried to lie about it and cover it up (literally).

Like they say, it's often not the initial crime that gets you, it's the cover-up. It would have been four strokes if the caddie had fessed up immediately. It's when he tried to be a devious cheater and to get away with it that it escalated.

So are we sure it's 33-7 and not 4-4? I don't know why it matters to me. I could see them using either as a way of DQing him. Or both.

http://thesandtrap.com/t/59650/caddy-banned-from-european-tour/

[zipazoid]

Ditto. It's one thing to break a rule. Happens often.

Another thing entirely to try to cover it up. That's why such players (and the caddy is part of the player) are DQ'd for such.

And that's why golf's integrity is viewed as beyond reproach. Go ahead and try to pull a fast one, but if you're caught, you're not only playing any more in that event but likely never to play that tour again.

[newtogolf]

He only fessed up because he was caught with the Lara's bag behind the bushes and the golfer and caddie Lara was paired with saw the club sitting in the bushes.  He was caught red handed, it would have been very foolish for him to try to deny anything at that point.  I'd say that's a serious attempt.

Originally Posted by B-Con

I don't know about "serious attempt". He fessed up on the same hole, seemingly pretty quickly. Are DQs handed out to people who try to sneakily break a rule, but eventually call themselves out? What about a foot wedge that a player later admits to after holing out? There are rules to handle that sort of thing. I can see wanting to make an example out of would-be cheaters, but that seems best handled by at the organization level, not the tournament level. Banning the caddie fulfilled that purpose.

33-7 gave the official the ability to hand out a DQ, not an obligation to do it. It was definitely a judgment call (and yes, arguably a good one), but it seems safe to say that not every official would have made that same decision.

[B-Con]

He only fessed up because he was caught with the Lara's bag behind the bushes and the golfer and caddie Lara was paired with saw the club sitting in the bushes.  He was caught red handed, it would have been very foolish for him to try to deny anything at that point.  I'd say that's a serious attempt.

I thought he volunteered the confession. In which case I was wondering why he didn't just take the 4 strokes and move on. If he was caught, well... That's different. Although I suppose that rule 4-4 came into play regardless of how he was caught, so under that it may not have been a judgment call.

[newtogolf]

No the other golfer and caddie walked over to behind the bushes because they said he was acting suspiciously.  When they got behind the bushes they saw the club and Lara's bag, he admitted to doing a very bad thing.

Originally Posted by B-Con

I thought he volunteered the confession. In which case I was wondering why he didn't just take the 4 strokes and move on. If he was caught, well... That's different.

Although I suppose that rule 4-4 came into play regardless of how he was caught, so under that it may not have been a judgment call.

[BallStriker]

Way too harsh......so is the result that an intentional breach of the rules means a lifetime ban?  If so, should this apply to players who test positive for PEDs?

Hmmmmm

[zipazoid]

Originally Posted by BallStriker

Way too harsh......so is the result that an intentional breach of the rules means a lifetime ban?  If so, should this apply to players who test positive for PEDs?

Hmmmmm

Lifetime ban for the caddy . Well, an 'indefinite suspension'. He could be reinstated.

Comparing it to players on PEDs is an entirely different issue. So let's take your PED example & make it more directly relevant. Had it been Lara trying to hide that 15th club in the bushes, he would have been suspended indefinitely too.

[zeg]

Originally Posted by B-Con

I don't know about "serious attempt". He fessed up on the same hole, seemingly pretty quickly. Are DQs handed out to people who try to sneakily break a rule, but eventually call themselves out? What about a foot wedge that a player later admits to after holing out? There are rules to handle that sort of thing. I can see wanting to make an example out of would-be cheaters, but that seems best handled by at the organization level, not the tournament level. Banning the caddie fulfilled that purpose.

33-7 gave the official the ability to hand out a DQ, not an obligation to do it. It was definitely a judgment call (and yes, arguably a good one), but it seems safe to say that not every official would have made that same decision.

IMO, any attempt to conceal a rules violation is a "serious attempt," even if one corrects the error before being prompted. I find it hard to believe any official would let this one slide.

Had it been a spontaneous confession, I could perhaps see the long term ban being shortened, but as for the tournament at hand, you simply have to bring the hammer down. The alternative is to encourage others to bend the rules in the future.