New School Pitching

[dsc123]

Originally Posted by Beachcomber

Yeah, I'm talking about pitches within 30yds.  A shot from 60yds... I already have that figured out with my 58* using a abbreviated pivot of my standard swing pattern.  But when you get to say 30 and in... This is when the 'New School' pitching method is something that I've experimented with... But not implemented as I haven't found a way to really control the carry.

I think its like Utley says--when your shooting a basketball or tossing a baseball, you're hand-eye coordination is all you need to make it the right distance.  It just takes practice to get the feels down. I use that 30yd shot as a check to make sure I'm not doing something stupid--an outside limit, I guess.

I watched the video, then sent one, maybe two videos into evolvr. I'm certainly not a stud player by any stretch, and my expectations are probably a lot lower than yours, but adopting this system took pitching from my biggest weakness to maybe my biggest strength very quickly.  I used to lay up all the time because I had a better chance of hitting the green from 100 yds than 30.

Originally Posted by Beachcomber

Also, sometimes when I do it - the ball will carry and then check and stop - almost immediately.  And other times it will carry and land and still rollout.  I'm guessing I'm not doing the motion correctly - my turning rates are probably off? But, when I go to the conventional chip - ball back weight forward... I can get the ball close to the hole.  Heck, I've chipped in 3x in my last 54 holes... Not too shabby for a 5 handicap.

At your level, you are probably more interested in varying that than I am.  I stop it pretty consistently within a few feet and I don't mess with that.  But I find that really feeling soft, smooth, and lose my hands gives me the best results.  It probably has to do with shaft lean but others are obviously more qualified to speak to that.

Mike/Erik,  do you guys agree with the original video posted here about doing this method with a lower lofted club?  I just use a 58*

[logman]

I got a good tip from Gary Travis Via Kuykendalls LPG site. It's so dumbass easy and super effective.

You change the grip of your top hand so the thumb runs down the back of the club. Some of you guys do this already I think. The Idea is to create a stiff wrist with NO break in it from start to finish. So basically you've got a straight rod made up of the club and your arm.

Your set up is weight over your front foot with no weight shift.

The thing that powers the chip/pitch is your rear arm. Just think of your rear arm as the piston and your front arm as a long pendulum.

This is the easiest method to learn. It'l take you 30 minutes.

The other big advantage is that you can just swing it a little harder for shots up to about 60 meters

It'l feel odd at first, but what the hell

This works!

[Ernest Jones]

Originally Posted by logman

I got a good tip from Gary Travis Via Kuykendalls LPG site. It's so dumbass easy and super effective.

You change the grip of your top hand so the thumb runs down the back of the club. Some of you guys do this already I think. The Idea is to create a stiff wrist with NO break in it from start to finish. So basically you've got a straight rod made up of the club and your arm.

Your set up is weight over your front foot with no weight shift.

The thing that powers the chip/pitch is your rear arm. Just think of your rear arm as the piston and your front arm as a long pendulum.

This is the easiest method to learn. It'l take you 30 minutes.

The other big advantage is that you can just swing it a little harder for shots up to about 60 meters

It'l feel odd at first, but what the hell

This works!

Not saying this doesn't work as I've never tried it but wouldn't this bring the leading edge into play and eliminate the bounce completely? Just trying to visualize this...I'll try it tonight for kicks'n'giggles but it sounds like its the diametric opposite of what is being discussed in this thread. What happens if you hit it fat with this technique? I'm guessing stubbed 3 footer or bladed 60 yarder? What about thin? Rocket through the green and into the junk? I'm not trying to stir the pot, just asking what the misses are with this technique because from what I've experienced so far with the "bounce" method the miss are *virtually* non-damaging.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by dak4n6

Just my .02, but this is only one in a continuum of endless ways to use your wedges. Hinge 'n hold, slide the club under, dead handed, forward in stance, back in stance, open face, hooded face, even the slightly bladed wedge - they all blend into each other at their 'bounderies'. I guess it's human nature to put things into bins and categories, but I love to bring out the creativity in wedge play and not rely on solely one or two ways to hit chips/pitches.

Of course. There are two basic backswings (chip = little wrist hinge, pitch = lots of wrist hinge) and two basic follow throughs (chip = drive the hands, pitch = soft hands/elbows).

You can:

- Chip Backswing, Chip Follow-Through (chip-chip)

- Pitch Backswing, Pitch Follow-Through (pitch-pitch)

- Pitch Backswing, Chip Follow-Through (pitch-chip)

Nobody really ever does chip-pitch. And yes, every one of those is a variation depending on the desired height, distance, spin, the lie, etc.

Originally Posted by Beachcomber

Going back to my original post... 10/15/20/25/30 yard pitch shots... How do you control the distance with this shot?  I think - at least from my usage of this method - you still need to really master the speed/acceleration piece to control the carry/roll-out.  And having the 'balls' to use the shot on lightning fast greens (sometimes I'm playing on 11+ stimp) isn't something I've found myself willing to go with yet.

How do you control distance? By learning the technique, spending ten minutes getting it down, and then having a moderate sense of touch and visualization. How do you control the distance when you putt? You look at the hole, factor in the slope, and figure out how hard to hit it.

Originally Posted by Beachcomber

I just don't think this is an easy shot for the average amatuer to master, unless they have the practice area to work on the technique.

My experience teaching it to people - and almost never practicing my own technique while still being quite good at it - disagrees. Sounds like you should come to the short game segment the Saturday before the April get-together. :)

Originally Posted by dsc123

Mike/Erik,  do you guys agree with the original video posted here about doing this method with a lower lofted club?  I just use a 58*

I use my 60 for a lot - I'll just change ball location, hand height, handle location (forward/back), stance, etc. for the loft I need. My 60 has the most bounce, though, which is largely why I favor it.

Originally Posted by logman

You change the grip of your top hand so the thumb runs down the back of the club. Some of you guys do this already I think. The Idea is to create a stiff wrist with NO break in it from start to finish. So basically you've got a straight rod made up of the club and your arm.

That's not what's being discussed. That's not pitching.

[Beachcomber]

Originally Posted by iacas

My experience teaching it to people - and almost never practicing my own technique while still being quite good at it - disagrees. Sounds like you should come to the short game segment the Saturday before the April get-together. :)

Sounds tempting.

[Stretch]

Originally Posted by mvmac

At the beginning of the video I'm demonstrating how I rotate my left forearm but keeping some "cup" in my left wrist.

That was the key feel for me in learning to use this method (reasonably) effectively.

[Mr. Desmond]

Originally Posted by cipher

Thanks for sharing Mike.  Awesome video about Kuch!

Thanks, Mike.

The camera really puts weight on Chris O'Connell. Yeah, I went to him, too, when he was just beginning to work with Kuch. Didn't get the results that Kuch did.

[boogielicious]

I did a little experiment at an outdoor range off mats yesterday with respect to pitch distances.  The intent was to see how far the pitch goes with just the "let gravity move the club head" feel.  Ball was just off my left heel and my feet were about six inches apart.  Weight left and left knee staying bent.  I went to position A3, left arm parallel to ground, but just let the club head follow my lower body on the downswing.  Cupped the left wrist to keep the bounce in play and wrapped around my body (as in Mike's video).

With my 58-12 it went consistently 50 yards.  Full swing is ~ 90 yards.

54-14 went 60 to 65 yards. Full swing ~105.

6-iron flew about 110 yards and had some roll out with the face slightly open at set up.  Full swing 160.

I didn't have any other irons with me, but I will try the 3-iron pitch a la Erik.

This would actually be a great warm up for a range session and I intend on using this in the future.  You get keys 1 & 2 dialed in right away.  After 4 or 5 pitches, when I went to do the full swing, contact was great and the swing felt very smooth and relaxed.

[cipher]

Originally Posted by iacas

I think the method I teach requires less timing and hand-eye coordination. Hell, half the time I'm not even looking at the ground when I hit the ball - I've already started pivoting and am looking out towards the target when I make contact.

I have been trying the method as well.  It makes pitching very easy.  I might hardly every use a chip shot now.  I don't know why(I don't understand the physics) but what Erik says above makes it even easier.  For some reason when I lift my head towards the target as I am striking the ball, it is very easy.  Does not make sense to me though.

[iacas]

I have been trying the method as well.  It makes pitching very easy.  I might hardly every use a chip shot now.  I don't know why(I don't understand the physics) but what Erik says above makes it even easier.  For some reason when I lift my head towards the target as I am striking the ball, it is very easy.  Does not make sense to me though.

Helps remove the "hit" instinct. Power via pivot.

[JET949]

i always was under the impression that a pitch shot your club head begins and ends above your hands and a chip shot is the opposite.

the video shows a pitch...chip shot?

[mvmac]

i always was under the impression that a pitch shot your club head begins and ends above your hands and a chip shot is the opposite.

the video shows a pitch...chip shot?

Are you talking about the first video on this thread?  It's pitching.

I'll just share what Erik has posted regarding definitions

Originally Posted by iacas

Chips use the leading edge, pitches use the bounce in my book. You can pitch with just about any club, and chip with almost any club. Sliding the club under the ball uses the bounce and provides a huge area where you can hit the ground and still have a great shot.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mvmac

At the beginning of the video I'm demonstrating how I rotate my left forearm but keeping some "cup" in my left wrist.  Really helps use the bounce, if that left wrist gets arched the leading edge will come into play.  Another reason you don't want a strong grip for these shots.  Then just showing myself exaggerate some downswings, then hit a shot with a neutral handle and one with the handle leaning back.

Just wanted to show a dtl to illustrate this feeling I'm describing above.  I hit two 20 yard pitches, then a short 10 yard pitch then a 45-50 yard one.  Really got a lot of weight left here, tight sandy lies on the range.

[Ernest Jones]

Originally Posted by JET949

i always was under the impression that a pitch shot your club head begins and ends above your hands and a chip shot is the opposite.

the video shows a pitch...chip shot?

A pitch generally has a lot more hinge so I see where you are coming from but I think the distinction is found in the conditions of contact more than anything else. Stan Utley and 5sk guys all define a chip as hitting the ground with the leading edge after the ball and a pitch as hitting the ground slightly before or right at the ball with the bounce of the club. Check it out, awesome short game info, literally game changing.

EDIT* mvmac posted at the same time as me so, what he said

[mvmac]

Originally Posted by Ernest Jones

A pitch generally has a lot more hinge so I see where you are coming from but I think the distinction is found in the conditions of contact more than anything else. Stan Utley and 5sk guys all define a chip as hitting the ground with the leading edge after the ball and a pitch as hitting the ground slightly before or right at the ball with the bounce of the club. Check it out, awesome short game info, literally game changing.

EDIT* mvmac posted at the same time as me so, what he said

Yep more hinge, club head "swings" more.  But I can hit a pitch, it'd be a short one, with the club not getting above my hands.  More about how you're using the club rather than the length of the swing.

Originally Posted by Ernest Jones

Check it out, awesome short game info, literally game changing.

Thanks, appreciate that

[Ernest Jones]

Originally Posted by mvmac

Thanks, appreciate that

No, thank you.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by JET949

i always was under the impression that a pitch shot your club head begins and ends above your hands and a chip shot is the opposite.

I don't define them that way. Pitches use the bounce, chips use the leading edge.

[TourSpoon]

Ok, I am finally on board. I was practicing this with my 54 and 60 and the cup in the left wrist is key for me. I can see where this is a pretty safe shot as you can get some speed going through and the bounce gives some forgiveness.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by TourSpoon

Ok, I am finally on board. I was practicing this with my 54 and 60 and the cup in the left wrist is key for me. I can see where this is a pretty safe shot as you can get some speed going through and the bounce gives some forgiveness.

Bingo. You said the magic words: speed, bounce.