Vanity Capping Is Worse Than Sandbagging

[Dave2512]

All that stuff is bad. Ever play a 3 ball scramble with yourself? My instructor had me do this last summer to prove a point about potential. Just playing the best ball was very different than my normal trot around the course. No obstructed shots, few bad lies, taking the closest approach shot all the things the mulligans, ball rolling and gimmie putts do for someone.

[Golfingdad]

I didn't know there was a turning point from fun to serious. I'll take note though ;)

Come on ... he said "generally."

I wouldn't be surprised if he was a little correct in his assumption though.  We're talking about vanity here, and so I don't find it hard at all to see that people near specific thresholds might be more likely to try and stay below them.  I could see how a guy would really want to be able to say 18 instead of a number in the 20's, but by that same token, I could easily see how guys in the 10-12 range would want to fudge a little to be able to share a single digit.

The lower the handicap gets though, the more obvious it becomes that the guy would be a vanity-capper.  You know?  It would be a lot easier to sniff out a 13 calling himself an 8 than it would be to notice a 22 calling himself a 17.  So, Lihu might have a bit of a point here as well because the egregiousness of the liberties being taken likely go down as the handicaps go down.  You're probably rarely even going to see 7's try to pass themselves off as 2's (cept maybe in "Dan's case ;)), but more likely 3's and 4's passing themselves off as 2's.

[Dave2512]

Tough to say unless you play with someone enough to know that much about their golf. The spread of scores in my last 20 is something like 12 strokes best to worst.

[Dave2512]

Ugh PC acting up and I can't edit or quote. Just looked best score in last 20 is 77 and worst is 93 so 16 strokes. If you catch me on the 93 day look out. Likewise on a good day you may think I am better than I am. But I rarely encounter someone asking what my handicap is.

[Lihu]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lihu

15 to 16's are generally more serious. I see the 18+ handicaps as being the ones who liberally use them. I think 16 handicap is the turning point of fun to serious golf, and that is why so many people are stuck as a 15-16 handicap. It's a big hurdle when you have 3-4 strokes to overcome just from more accurate and honest score keeping.

I didn't know there was a turning point from fun to serious. I'll take note though ;)

Most people start off playing, thinking that they can readily play 18 strokes over par. Seems like an easy enough target, so many golfers list themselves as "18". They also suggest to beginners that that's a pretty standard place to start (this beginner certainly learned the hard way that bogey golf is pretty good golf). Some of these folks also don't know or believe that there are lots of other people who can play serious golf. The way they shoot bogey is that they cheat and assume that others also cheat to get to the same situation. In retrospect, I saw this all the time on the weekends. I don't really play on weekends anymore.

I really have a hard time imagining someone breaking bogey if they don't take their game seriously enough to know how far they actually hit the ball and understand the rules.

The turning point was around 15-16 for me. At this stage, I got corrected on the course a few times for not knowing the rules, like "nearest point of relief", "casual water" and such. It was all a learning experience. I played daily with more serious weekday golfers, this is the turning point for me at least.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abu3baid

I didn't know there was a turning point from fun to serious. I'll take note though ;)

Come on ... he said "generally."

I wouldn't be surprised if he was a little correct in his assumption though.  We're talking about vanity here, and so I don't find it hard at all to see that people near specific thresholds might be more likely to try and stay below them.  I could see how a guy would really want to be able to say 18 instead of a number in the 20's, but by that same token, I could easily see how guys in the 10-12 range would want to fudge a little to be able to share a single digit.

The lower the handicap gets though, the more obvious it becomes that the guy would be a vanity-capper.  You know?  It would be a lot easier to sniff out a 13 calling himself an 8 than it would be to notice a 22 calling himself a 17.  So, Lihu might have a bit of a point here as well because the egregiousness of the liberties being taken likely go down as the handicaps go down.  You're probably rarely even going to see 7's try to pass themselves off as 2's (cept maybe in "Dan's case ;)), but more likely 3's and 4's passing themselves off as 2's.

Yup, if I play with someone who says he's an "8", I can tell within 2 strokes. If he's not either on the green in those two shots or really close to it, there's just no way.

The exception is the person who overshoots a 350 yard green. I've met one of them before too.

[Abu3baid]

Come on ... he said "generally." :-P I wouldn't be surprised if he was a little correct in his assumption though.  We're talking about vanity here, and so I don't find it hard at all to see that people near specific thresholds might be more likely to try and stay below them.  I could see how a guy would really want to be able to say 18 instead of a number in the 20's, but by that same token, I could easily see how guys in the 10-12 range would want to fudge a little to be able to share a single digit. The lower the handicap gets though, the more obvious it becomes that the guy would be a vanity-capper.  You know?  It would be a lot easier to sniff out a 13 calling himself an 8 than it would be to notice a 22 calling himself a 17.  So, Lihu might have a bit of a point here as well because the egregiousness of the liberties being taken likely go down as the handicaps go down.  You're probably rarely even going to see 7's try to pass themselves off as 2's (cept maybe in "Dan's case ;)), but more likely 3's and 4's passing themselves off as 2's.

Haha,. Come on.. I was only commenting on golf turning from fun to serious ;) I was just kidding with him, because no matter how serious we get I hope that it continues to be fun, other wise I'm selling my clubs, aren't you? But I agree with all you wrote!

[ay33660]

I see a lot of people who improve their lie all the time.  That's a form of a vanity handicap.  My regular group plays it down always (although we do give putts).  I know when my club plays lift, clean, and place in the winter I feel like I'm cheating.  Consequently, my scores are often lower than normal in these events.  Golf is a LOT easier when you always have good lie.

Good point.

Up here our scores from Nov 15 to March 1 are not counted for handicap purposes.

I definitely think that "preferred lies" lowers my handicap but they are not included in my handicap.

I am not sure if this has already been pointed out but our RCGA or USGA rules of golf requires all of us to be "vanity" handicappers.

What I am referring to is Equitable Stroke Control (ESC).

Course Handicap	Maximum Score
9 or less Handicap	Double Bogey
10 to 19 Handicap	Maximum score of 7
20 to 29 Handicap	Maximum score of 8
30 to 39 Handicap	Maximum score of 9
40 and Over Handicap	Maximum score of 10

This is perhaps off topic but does the current system of ESC treat all golfers equally?

Points to ponder:

1.  Does ESC ensure that golfer remain in their flights longer? For example does a 10 handicaper have a harder time going down to a 9 because he must post up to a double on a par 5, a triple on a par 4 and a quad on a par 3 whereas the same 9 capper can only post a max of a double on all holes? Same for a 20 going to a 19 etc etc.

2.  Does ESC treat differently a golfer who has mainly pars or doubles and triples vs. a golfer that mainly has boogies?

3.  If we do not apply ESC wouldn't our handicaps be higher? The ESC adjustment is way larger for the higher handicappers vs. the single digit so in effect the higher handicapper is posting a larger "vanity" handicap.

4.  In general wouldn't a golfer that is farther away from being a scratch golfer also have a larger variance in what they shoot relative to par on each hole. EG. a scratch golfer is very unlikely to make more than a couple of double boogies in each round and therefore ESC will apply less whereas a 10 to 19 handicap golfer will have ESC apply more as they are more prone to perhaps a triple or more on a par 5 or a quad on a par 4.

[Lihu]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

Come on ... he said "generally."

I wouldn't be surprised if he was a little correct in his assumption though.  We're talking about vanity here, and so I don't find it hard at all to see that people near specific thresholds might be more likely to try and stay below them.  I could see how a guy would really want to be able to say 18 instead of a number in the 20's, but by that same token, I could easily see how guys in the 10-12 range would want to fudge a little to be able to share a single digit.

The lower the handicap gets though, the more obvious it becomes that the guy would be a vanity-capper.  You know?  It would be a lot easier to sniff out a 13 calling himself an 8 than it would be to notice a 22 calling himself a 17.  So, Lihu might have a bit of a point here as well because the egregiousness of the liberties being taken likely go down as the handicaps go down.  You're probably rarely even going to see 7's try to pass themselves off as 2's (cept maybe in "Dan's case ;)), but more likely 3's and 4's passing themselves off as 2's.

Haha,. Come on.. I was only commenting on golf turning from fun to serious ;)

I was just kidding with him, because no matter how serious we get I hope that it continues to be fun, other wise I'm selling my clubs, aren't you?

But I agree with all you wrote!

Okay, I get what you are saying, and I agree wholeheartedly.

In my thickheaded response, I wasn't sure to what you were objecting.

Cheers.

[Golfingdad]

But I rarely encounter someone asking what my handicap is.

Me neither.  Makes vanity capping even more perplexing.  The person secretly HAS to know in their heart of hearts that they're not actually the handicap they claim to be, and if there aren't people out there to be telling, then what's the point?

Haha,. Come on.. I was only commenting on golf turning from fun to serious ;)

I was just kidding with him, because no matter how serious we get I hope that it continues to be fun, other wise I'm selling my clubs, aren't you?

Oh, totally!!

[DrvFrShow]

This ESC? Yeah, I've had a whopping 10 on one hole and had to post an 8 for it. Is that vanity handicapping? Wow I had a 95! My HC dropped because I reported a triple bogey instead of a double par!

By the opposite side, I've had a 106 and the system just kicked it out because it was an anomaly, so go figure out that. You have a good round and it calculates that into your handicap. You have a bad round and it tosses it unless you have several bad rounds in a row. The HC system is geared toward vanity handicapping. But they do this because there are people who will sabotage a good round with a couple of fake blow up holes to keep an artificially high handicap otherwise.

[Dave2512]

Does seem strange it's not like there are a bunch of golfers out there saying I am blah blah handicap. Only once has a stranger asked me. The other times it came up was taking to guys I know in men's league about what flight I'd be in if I joined.

[dbuck]

One is as inaccurate as the other, but I voted sandbagging as the worse because someone who does that is in my opinion trying to get more strokes than they deserve. Vanity capping is stupid because they only hurt themselves and potential partners.

[rkim291968]

Quote:

Originally Posted by LeftRightLeft

I see a lot of people who improve their lie all the time.  That's a form of a vanity handicap.  My regular group plays it down always (although we do give putts).  I know when my club plays lift, clean, and place in the winter I feel like I'm cheating.  Consequently, my scores are often lower than normal in these events.  Golf is a LOT easier when you always have good lie.

Good point.

Up here our scores from Nov 15 to March 1 are not counted for handicap purposes.

I definitely think that "preferred lies" lowers my handicap but they are not included in my handicap.

I am not sure if this has already been pointed out but our RCGA or USGA rules of golf requires all of us to be "vanity" handicappers.

What I am referring to is Equitable Stroke Control (ESC).

Course Handicap

Maximum Score

9 or less Handicap

Double Bogey

10 to 19 Handicap

Maximum score of 7

20 to 29 Handicap

Maximum score of 8

30 to 39 Handicap

Maximum score of 9

40 and Over Handicap

Maximum score of 10

This is perhaps off topic but does the current system of ESC treat all golfers equally?

Points to ponder:

1.  Does ESC ensure that golfer remain in their flights longer? For example does a 10 handicaper have a harder time going down to a 9 because he must post up to a double on a par 5, a triple on a par 4 and a quad on a par 3 whereas the same 9 capper can only post a max of a double on all holes? Same for a 20 going to a 19 etc etc.

I know what you mean.   I have been there with a course handicap ranging from 19 to 20.  Looking at it from the other side, 19 'capper have easier time staying under 20.   Once I went from 19 to 20, it was harder to come back down.

My course has a mix of sandbagers and vanity cappers (and I suspect not too many in the middle but I can be wrong).

[MrFlipper]

Does seem strange it's not like there are a bunch of golfers out there saying I am blah blah handicap. Only once has a stranger asked me. The other times it came up was taking to guys I know in men's league about what flight I'd be in if I joined.

I get asked every now and then, but 99.99% of the time they don't really care. it's just a way to start a conversation so that they can tell you their handicap.

As in "what's your handicap? (no pause for answer) I'm a 5. I just shot 75 yesterday, I never play this bad" (probably on their way to a 105 today)

Sure buddy, whatever you say

But I think vanity cappers really believe in their hearts that they have the right handicap. Usually they are low double digit types that think they are mid single digits. When I belonged to clubs everybody knew who the vanity types and sandbaggers were, the sandbaggers were generally excluded from games and the vanity types were allowed to hang around because they always lost money. Nobody ever picked them for partner games except their vanity buddies. It never bothered them that they never won any money, they could always rationalize it somehow.

Rarely do I remember high handicappers as vanity types, those guys tended to be the sandbaggers if they were managing their handicaps at all.

[ay33660]

This ESC? Yeah, I've had a whopping 10 on one hole and had to post an 8 for it. Is that vanity handicapping? Wow I had a 95! My HC dropped because I reported a triple bogey instead of a double par!

By the opposite side, I've had a 106 and the system just kicked it out because it was an anomaly, so go figure out that. You have a good round and it calculates that into your handicap. You have a bad round and it tosses it unless you have several bad rounds in a row. The HC system is geared toward vanity handicapping. But they do this because there are people who will sabotage a good round with a couple of fake blow up holes to keep an artificially high handicap otherwise.

I think the 106 was not counted because in the calculation of your handicap only the top 10 of 20 scores is used.

So there is another factor that creates "vanity" cappers out of all of us.

[Golfingdad]

This ESC? Yeah, I've had a whopping 10 on one hole and had to post an 8 for it. Is that vanity handicapping? Wow I had a 95! My HC dropped because I reported a triple bogey instead of a double par!

By the opposite side, I've had a 106 and the system just kicked it out because it was an anomaly, so go figure out that. You have a good round and it calculates that into your handicap. You have a bad round and it tosses it unless you have several bad rounds in a row. The HC system is geared toward vanity handicapping. But they do this because there are people who will sabotage a good round with a couple of fake blow up holes to keep an artificially high handicap otherwise.

No, the system is geared towards potential.

[ditchparrot19]

I've never been fleeced by a vanity guy. They don't bother me in the slightest

I've had a couple of sandbaggers get into my wallet real good before I realized what they were. That chapped my a$$ royally.

Sandbaggers are far, far worse.

[ghalfaire]

I didn't reply to this back when the thread was young but decided I would this time and voted for sandbagging.  However "vanity handicaps" are not harmless.  I once had signed up for a tournament at my club, a 2 player best ball of three rounds, and my partner took ill a day before the start.  I was going to drop out but the pro said we had a new member who wanted to play and if OK with me he would replace my partner.  I said yes.  I think this fellow had a 12.x handicap index as I remember.  Well if he ever scored better than 90 he didn't do it those three days.  In talking to him his words were I sometimes have bad days like this but they are so unusual I don't normally record them.  That probably not an exact quote but as close as I can remember.  We placed near the bottom of our flight and since the entry fee was significant I will tell you vanity handicaps are not harmless.