Opponent refused to putt in tournament play.

[Ernest Jones]

Originally Posted by MEfree

That didn't seem to work out so well for Annika- she may not have received a "penalty" but she was forced to replay a shot she had holed...I fail to understand how that is not a penalty (or how it saves time)

Originally Posted by iacas

Originally Posted by turtleback

Really?  THIS is your point?

She was playing match play.  On the PGA tour they play stroke play.

LMAO.

Man I love this place!

[MEfree]

Originally Posted by turtleback

Really?  THIS is your point?

She was playing match play.  On the PGA tour they play stroke play.

My point is why should we be advised to play one way that is contrary to the stroke play rules (but not actually penalized) when this method carries a potential penalty in match play?  I would rather be advised to play by rules that do not carry a potential penalty in any situation.  My thinking is that if it is actually faster for everyone to play up to the green before putting, why don't the rules reflect this?

Sure, a guy who is closer but off will lose the advantage of seeing his opponent play first, but is this really that important?  I was looking at where I was off close to the green yesterday- in some cases I would have traded with someone on the green but farther (i.e. tough chip) while in others I preferred being off but closer (i.e. a couple inches on the fringe that I could putt).  My guess is that it is pretty close to 50/50 as to who is in the more favorable position- the guy on the green or the guy closer to the hole but off.

Lots of people currently use the method advised by RayG and endorsed by Fourputt, so why not have this method be the actual rule instead of having one method for stroke play and less competitive match play rounds and another rule for serious match play competition?

[Shindig]

Sure, a guy who is closer but off will lose the advantage of seeing his opponent play first, but is this really that important?

If you don't think it's important, don't call it on your opponent in match play. You're allowed to allow the shot to stand. [quote name="MEfree" url="/t/68566/opponent-refused-to-putt-in-tournament-play/72#post_871300"] Lots of people currently use the method advised by RayG and endorsed by Fourputt, so why not have this method be the actual rule instead of having one method for stroke play and less competitive match play rounds and another rule for serious match play competition?  [/quote] False pretense: the rule [i]is[/i] in effect for [i]all[/i] match play rounds. It isn't another rule only for "serious" match play.

[Fourputt]

This discussion just keeps getting stranger.  Such a simple rule, and still it's too complicated for at least one member.  Maybe you are more suited to bowling, where the automatic systems take care of everything except rolling the ball.

[Slice of Life]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

This discussion just keeps getting stranger.  Such a simple rule, and still it's too complicated for at least one member.  Maybe you are more suited to bowling, where the automatic systems take care of everything except rolling the ball.

He's probably argue why it's poor sportsmanship to remove someone's points for going over the line.

[MEfree]

Originally Posted by Shindig

If you don't think it's important, don't call it on your opponent in match play. You're allowed to allow the shot to stand.

False pretense: the rule is in effect for all match play rounds. It isn't another rule only for "serious" match play.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

Please listen to Ray.  This is how we should all be playing unless it's a match, and even then unless it's some official competition, use your head.  My Men's Club played ready golf in tournament play.  There is no reason not to do the same as in casual golf, aside from following ALL of the rules instead of ignoring the ones you don't like.

My point stands, why should we play differently in a "casual" round or unofficial match than we do in "official" competition? I see lots of players get into "official" competition and choke their a** off compared to how they play in casual rounds- I think this is partly due to not being used to playing by the rules of "official" competition.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by MEfree

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shindig

If you don't think it's important, don't call it on your opponent in match play. You're allowed to allow the shot to stand.

False pretense: the rule is in effect for all match play rounds. It isn't another rule only for "serious" match play.

I agree, so why would our resident rules expert say-

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

Please listen to Ray.  This is how we should all be playing unless it's a match, and even then unless it's some official competition, use your head.  My Men's Club played ready golf in tournament play.  There is no reason not to do the same as in casual golf, aside from following ALL of the rules instead of ignoring the ones you don't like.

My point stands, why should we play differently in a "casual" round or unofficial match than we do in "official" competition? I see lots of players get into "official" competition and choke their a** off compared to how they play in casual rounds- I think this is partly due to not being used to playing by the rules of "official" competition.

I wouldn't unless we had fallen behind, or the situation was such that the order didn't matter, and my opponent and myself weren't the sort who would call it just to be pricks.  I'm not the one who is worried about it, and it's never been an issue in any match I've ever played.

To be honest, I rarely play a match which isn't "official", so it's a moot point.  Also, the situation rarely comes up that the two players are so close to the same distance that it isn't fairly obvious.  In most matches I've been involved in, if it isn't apparent, we simply make a decision and go with it.  Because it's match play that is perfectly acceptable as long as such decisions aren't made ahead of time with the intent of waiving the rule.  My matches have mostly been played with sensible golfers.

[Asheville]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

This discussion just keeps getting stranger.  Such a simple rule, and still it's too complicated for at least one member.  Maybe you are more suited to bowling, where the automatic systems take care of everything except rolling the ball.

This is much like an obscure Twilight Zone episode being stumbled over on Gawker by a poster from a state with too lax of medical marijuana laws.

[bplewis24]

Pace of play.

And I'd like to point out that the original point RayG was making was that you can lose a lot of time on a green by removing the flag, putting it back in, then removing it again...all while trying to determine who is or isn't further away.  To save time, you can just make an educated guess as to who is further away, or just assume that the guy off the green is further away, if it means not having to spend extra time fiddling with the flag.  You don't have to, but if you've been all over the place on that hole, focus less on the letter of the law and more on not slowing down the entire course.  We're just trying to employ a bit of common sense, similar to not spending 5 minutes looking for a lost ball and then going back to re-tee (hit a provisional).

I played this weekend with a pair of guys who were really good players, always around the green if not on, and the person truly away was up.  But what they did to speed up play, was to pull the flag even for the guy who was off the green (assuming this wasn't impractical) unless the next putter was going to need it tended.  This was done in the interest of pace of play.  If it was in a match or competition, it's possible they would have left the flag in from time to time.

[Lihu]

Originally Posted by Asheville

This is much like an obscure Twilight Zone episode being stumbled over on Gawker by a poster from a state with too lax of medical marijuana laws.

No medical reason needed for marijuana in Colorado. If anything, California is the one with "too lax medical" marijuana laws.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by bplewis24

Pace of play.

And I'd like to point out that the original point RayG was making was that you can lose a lot of time on a green by removing the flag, putting it back in, then removing it again...all while trying to determine who is or isn't further away.  To save time, you can just make an educated guess as to who is further away, or just assume that the guy off the green is further away, if it means not having to spend extra time fiddling with the flag.  You don't have to, but if you've been all over the place on that hole, focus less on the letter of the law and more on not slowing down the entire course.  We're just trying to employ a bit of common sense, similar to not spending 5 minutes looking for a lost ball and then going back to re-tee (hit a provisional).

I played this weekend with a pair of guys who were really good players, always around the green if not on, and the person truly away was up.  But what they did to speed up play, was to pull the flag even for the guy who was off the green (assuming this wasn't impractical) unless the next putter was going to need it tended.  This was done in the interest of pace of play.  If it was in a match or competition, it's possible they would have left the flag in from time to time.

I disagree that if a group knows what it's doing, it takes very little time to attend or remove the flagstick and then replace it.  It isn't even always done just for the player who is away.  We have had any number of times when the first to play is in a bunker, he plays and hits clean over the green, then has to rake and walk all the way across to play his next shot.  In the interest of pace we will do any or all of several things.   A couple of us may putt while he cleans up, or one of us may putt while another goes and rakes for him so he can chase down his ball for his next shot.  And during all of this, one or another will be tending, removing and replacing the flagstick with no time lost as a result.

As usual the key is experience, and maybe some education in how to multitask.

[barbm12thtee]

Since this thread has gone in many directions I just want to get back to the original question. If a player, in Tournament play refuses to putt when they're furthest from the hole it's probably because they don't know the rules of golf. By going in the proper order those closer get an advantage by seeing the line and speed of the green. Many people do believe that if you're off the green you go first and distance from the hole is inconsequential. Many recreational and serious golfers do putt or chip in an order that helps them move along quicker. Agree with all of that! I guess what is important is if you're playing relaxed rules with your friends better not take it to a tournament that plays by the rules of golf.

[MEfree]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

This discussion just keeps getting stranger.  Such a simple rule, and still it's too complicated for at least one member.  Maybe you are more suited to bowling, where the automatic systems take care of everything except rolling the ball.

Not saying the rule is too complicated for me to understand, but if it is such a perfect rule, why shouldn't we follow it all the time?  Recall, that you were the one who said to ignore it in certain situations BEFORE I jumped into the discussion.

My point is that if an accomplished and intelligent player like Annika can have a brain fart and forget about a rule she does not normally get penalized for ignoring, then this same thing can happen to any of us if we get ourselves in the habit of not following this and other rules (like hitting provisionals for hazards or dropping a ball when we unexpectly have a lost ball and didn't hit a provisonal).

[turtleback]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

This discussion just keeps getting stranger.  Such a simple rule, and still it's too complicated for at least one member.  Maybe you are more suited to bowling, where the automatic systems take care of everything except rolling the ball.

And this from the guy who claims he wants to "simplify" the rules.

I am reminded of the story of the guy who entered a monastery where the rule of discipline was that you were only to speak 2 words, once every 5 years.

At the end of the first five years he went to the Father superior and said, "Bed hard."

At the end of the 2nd 5 years he went to the Father superior and said, "Food cold."

At the end of the 3rd 5 years he went to the Father Superior and said "I quit."

To which the Father Superior replied, "I'm not surprises - you've done nothing but complain since you got here."

Originally Posted by Fourputt

I disagree that if a group knows what it's doing, it takes very little time to attend or remove the flagstick and then replace it.  It isn't even always done just for the player who is away.  We have had any number of times when the first to play is in a bunker, he plays and hits clean over the green, then has to rake and walk all the way across to play his next shot.  In the interest of pace we will do any or all of several things.   A couple of us may putt while he cleans up, or one of us may putt while another goes and rakes for him so he can chase down his ball for his next shot.  And during all of this, one or another will be tending, removing and replacing the flagstick with no time lost as a result.

As usual the key is experience, and maybe some education in how to multitask.

The key is really common sense.  Which is singularly lacking in some of the posters in this thread (NOT you).

[MEfree]

Originally Posted by turtleback

And this from the guy who claims he wants to "simplify" the rules.

The rule as written is VERY SIMPLE and would continue to be simple if we followed it all the time.  BUT multiple posters including RayG and Fourputt have encouraged us to ignore it in certain situations.  Their advice may be correct (and I have ignored this rule many times myself), but it makes a simple rule not so simple.  I am not saying that ignoring it is too complex for me to understand or that I don't have the common sense to correctly ignore it in most situations, but I don't like getting into the habit of ignoring rules if at some point I may get penalized for ignoring them.

To me, the simplest rules are the ones that you can and should follow all the time.

If you were going to explain order of play to a new golfer who was going to play mostly casual rounds but at some point was going to play in a competitive match play situation, how would you explain it to him?

[David in FL]

Originally Posted by MEfree

The rule as written is VERY SIMPLE and would continue to be simple if we followed it all the time.  BUT multiple posters including RayG and Fourputt have encouraged us to ignore it in certain situations.  Their advice may be correct (and I have ignored this rule many times myself), but it makes a simple rule not so simple.  I am not saying that ignoring it is too complex for me to understand or that I don't have the common sense to correctly ignore it in most situations, but I don't like getting into the habit of ignoring rules if at some point I may get penalized for ignoring them.

To me, the simplest rules are the ones that you can and should follow all the time.

If you were going to explain order of play to a new golfer who was going to play mostly casual rounds but at some point was going to play in a competitive match play situation, how would you explain it to him?

The person who is furthest away from the hole plays first.  If you play out of turn, your opponent has the option of requiring you to replay your stroke......or not.

It's just not that hard....

[MEfree]

Originally Posted by David in FL

The person who is furthest away from the hole plays first.  If you play out of turn, your opponent has the option of requiring you to replay your stroke......or not.

It's just not that hard....

Easy, so it never makes sense to play out of turn.

[David in FL]

Originally Posted by MEfree

Easy, so it never makes sense to play out of turn.

I have a 2 inch tap in.  I tap it in.  I've played out of turn, but there certainly isn't any down-side because no opponent is going to require me to replay the shot, and if they did, there's no chance that I'd miss it.

By tapping in the putt and speeding up the overall pace of play, doing so "made sense"......