Unexpected Lost Ball - No Provisional - What Do You Do?

[saevel25]

and the penalty for breach of 27-1 is two strokes.

So it seems to me he incurs one stroke penalty under 27-1, and then an additional two strokes penalty for breach of 27-1 by dropping in the wrong place. And then the ball is now in play.

I would not compound the penalties.

Correct drop is

Drive 1 (OB), Tee Up: 2 (Penalty), Drive 3

Drive 1 (Lost Ball Not Found,) Drop 2, + 2 stroke penalty, Hit 4

That is the way I read it as.

[DrvFrShow]

So bottom line is if a player is going to be hitting 4 for those rules violation instead of taking the S&D; (for the lost ball) from the tee, they might as well drop that ball in the middle of the fairway and be done with it rather than to even attempt to be near where the ball might have been (i.e. thick rough, or edge of the woods with a less than good lie, etc.)

[saevel25]

I would not compound the penalties.

Correct drop is

Drive 1 (OB), Tee Up: 2 (Penalty), Drive 3

Drive 1 (Lost Ball Not Found,) Drop 2, + 2 stroke penalty, Hit 4

That is the way I read it as.

I stand corrected, it is 3 stroke penalty.

27-1/3

Ball Dropped in Area Where Original Ball Lost; Ball Then Played

Q.A player, unable to find his ball, drops another ball in the area where his original ball was lost and plays that ball. What is the ruling?

A.In match play, the player loses the hole - Rule 20-7b.

In stroke play, the player incurs the stroke-and-distance penalty prescribed by Rule 27-1 and an additional penalty of two strokes for a breach of that Rule. If the breach was a serious one, he must rectify the error as provided in the second paragraph of Rule 20-7c; otherwise, he is disqualified.

[DrvFrShow]

So what you're saying is that they're hitting 5? In other words if you don't feel like going back just X the hole and pick up?

[Jeremie Boop]

I always take ESC instead of par+handicap.... Seems I've been doing it wrong by being overly penal..

[acerimusdux]

Quote:

Originally Posted by wadesworld

The dropped ball is definitely in play and you are correct about the 3 penalty strokes.  He also committed a serious breech, but as it was in casual play, there's nobody there to enforce that, so it begs the question again, how to score the hole?

Why don't we email the USGA and ask?  I'll be happy to do it if nobody else has already.

Yes, it's a good question as to whether a "serious breach" could still be "in accordance with the principles of the Rules of Golf" for handicap purposes. None of the situations they describe under which a score remains acceptable for handicap purposes seem quite as serious as that:

Quote:

If a player uses a distance (only) measuring device or plays a round under preferred lies, regardless of the Local Rule established, the score remains acceptable for handicap purposes. (See Decision 5-1e/2 and Section 7.) This policy also includes situations that are generally out of the player's control, such as incorrectly installed hole liners or an incorrectly marked golf course.

At the same time, the examples they mention when a hole is not played under the rules of golf tend to be ones in which it is not played under those rules from the beginning, such as playing two balls on a hole.

It doesn't seem right though that a player could record par+handicap strokes if he begins a hole in accordance with the rules, and then decides to break a rule because he was playing the hole poorly .  Either applying the appropriate penalty strokes and using the score for the completed hole, or treating that hole as uncompleted and recording the most likely score would seem more equitable.

[wadesworld]

It doesn't seem right though that a player could record par+handicap strokes if he begins a hole in accordance with the rules, and then decides to break a rule because he was playing the hole poorly.  Either applying the appropriate penalty strokes and using the score for the completed hole, or treating that hole as uncompleted and recording the most likely score would seem more equitable.

I think I repeat this every week.

You're thinking about it backwards.  Remember, all we're talking about here is handicap.  We're not talking about what you actually shot or your money match with your buddies.

The most penal thing that can be done to your handicap is to give you a good score.  That will make your handicap go down , which gives you fewer strokes .  What they do though, is make you take par + handicap strokes, which should keep your handicap about the same. The score you turn in may have no bearing on what you actually shot, or what score you and your buddies decided you shot given whatever rules agreement you had in place.

[Mac62]

I think I repeat this every week.

You're thinking about it backwards.  Remember, all we're talking about here is handicap.  We're not talking about what you actually shot or your money match with your buddies.

The most penal thing that can be done to your handicap is to give you a good score.  That will make your handicap go down, which gives you fewer strokes.  What they do though, is make you take par + handicap strokes, which should keep your handicap about the same. The score you turn in may have no bearing on what you actually shot, or what score you and your buddies decided you shot given whatever rules agreement you had in place.

I think the vast majority of golfers look at it backwards.  For 99% of us, the goal is to get the handicap down - to show improvement, for bragging rights, ego stroking, whatever.  What the USGA is more concerned about (IMO) is handicaps artificially going up - sandbagging.  Not saying they advocate/condone cheating in either direction, but sandbaggers are a bigger threat to the integrity of the game than vanity 'cappers.  A 20 who fudges his way to a 9 will get eaten alive the first time he steps into a tournament or money game, while a 9 who fudged his way to a 20 is going to "miraculously" shoot his lowest round of the year and mop the floor with all the other high 'cappers.  Hence, taking par + hcp strokes does more to safeguard against sandbaggers than taking ESC or the 'most likely score'.  It may not make a huge difference over a round or two, but it would quickly add up over a few rounds.

[acerimusdux]

I think I repeat this every week.

You're thinking about it backwards.  Remember, all we're talking about here is handicap.  We're not talking about what you actually shot or your money match with your buddies.

The most penal thing that can be done to your handicap is to give you a good score.  That will make your handicap go down, which gives you fewer strokes.  What they do though, is make you take par + handicap strokes, which should keep your handicap about the same. The score you turn in may have no bearing on what you actually shot, or what score you and your buddies decided you shot given whatever rules agreement you had in place.

Well maybe some people want it to go down, maybe others want it to go up. All of that should be irrelevant though, as it would violate the entire purpose of the handicap system to try be penal, rather than equitable. The handicap system is supposed to reflect as best as possible the golfers actual performance and ability.

So if you know the golfer would have scored worse than his handicap, then you are artificially keeping his handicap down if you require him to record par+handicap anyway. This also would really open the door to more vanity capping. A vanity capper could in theory just break a rule every time he's in the middle of a really bad hole, and he doesn't want his handicap to increase.

Par + handicap makes perfect sense if no attempt was made to play the hole in accordance with the rules. But once a player is in the middle of playing the hole, in accordance with the rules, it just seems too arbitrary to erase everything that actually happened to that point. Suppose a player is on his eighth stroke, and likely to make a 10. Would it make any sense at all for the rules to say that if he commits a serious breach at that point, he should record a 6?

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by wadesworld

I think I repeat this every week.

You're thinking about it backwards.  Remember, all we're talking about here is handicap.  We're not talking about what you actually shot or your money match with your buddies.

The most penal thing that can be done to your handicap is to give you a good score.  That will make your handicap go down, which gives you fewer strokes.  What they do though, is make you take par + handicap strokes, which should keep your handicap about the same. The score you turn in may have no bearing on what you actually shot, or what score you and your buddies decided you shot given whatever rules agreement you had in place.

Well maybe some people want it to go down, maybe others want it to go up. All of that should be irrelevant though, as it would violate the entire purpose of the handicap system to try be penal, rather than equitable. The handicap system is supposed to reflect as best as possible the golfers actual performance and ability.

So if you know the golfer would have scored worse than his handicap, then you are artificially keeping his handicap down if you require him to record par+handicap anyway. This also would really open the door to more vanity capping. A vanity capper could in theory just break a rule every time he's in the middle of a really bad hole, and he doesn't want his handicap to increase.

Par + handicap makes perfect sense if no attempt was made to play the hole in accordance with the rules. But once a player is in the middle of playing the hole, in accordance with the rules, it just seems too arbitrary to erase everything that actually happened to that point. Suppose a player is on his eighth stroke, and likely to make a 10. Would it make any sense at all for the rules to say that if he commits a serious breach at that point, he should record a 6?

The real point is - should a player be allowed to raise his handicap be breaking the rules?  I say no, he shouldn't.  I don't really care what his potential score might have been, the rules for handicap reporting shouldn't give him carte blanche to sandbag.

[acerimusdux]

The real point is - should a player be allowed to raise his handicap be breaking the rules?  I say no, he shouldn't.  I don't really care what his potential score might have been, the rules for handicap reporting shouldn't give him carte blanche to sandbag.

That's why you have ESC.

The ESC max for a 10-19 handicap is 7. So suppose a bogey golfer hits his first shot OB on a par 4. If a bogey golfer is following the rules and hitting his 3rd shot on a par 4 from the teeing ground, his expected score would also likely be 7. So nothing he does by breaking rules could artificially raise his handicap at that point.  Similarly, a scratch golfer playing his third shot from the tee likely has an expected score of double bogey, which is equal to his ESC.

In might be possible that penalties could cause an extra stroke on a par three now and then for some golfers, but this problem doesn't usually arise on a par three, since the distance usually isn't so great that you can't tell from the tee box where your shot went.

Once you hit that first shot OB, the likely score is almost always going to be closer to ESC than to par + handicap.

[MEfree]

The handicap system is supposed to reflect as best as possible the golfers actual performance and ability.

I thought I remember reading somewhere that your handicap is suppose to reflect your POTENTIAL not your actually performance....that is why they take your 10 BEST rounds (out of 20) and use the ESC system. I lost balls on back to back holes today, both off of what I thought were good drives. On the 10th hole I thought I saw my ball bounce left towards the long grass when it landed in an area of light rough that slopes from left to right and normally bounces right towards the middle of the fairway. I played a provisional because of the strange bounce, made par on that ball for a double. Next hole, a 320 yard par 4, I hit drive on the EXACT line I wanted (which once put me about 4 feet from the cup a few years back with firm fairways). Ground was soft so I figured I'd be short of the green on the fairway between the bunkers. That part of the landing area is blind but I saw no reason to hit a provisional and was really surprised not to find the ball. Dropped one on the fairway, hit it on the green and two putted. Carded a double bogey 6 for HC.

[RFKFREAK]

I thought I remember reading somewhere that your handicap is suppose to reflect your POTENTIAL not your actually performance....that is why they take your 10 BEST rounds (out of 20) and use the ESC system.

I lost balls on back to back holes today, both off of what I thought were good drives. On the 10th hole I thought I saw my ball bounce left towards the long grass when it landed in an area of light rough that slopes from left to right and normally bounces right towards the middle of the fairway. I played a provisional because of the strange bounce, made par on that ball for a double. Next hole, a 320 yard par 4, I hit drive on the EXACT line I wanted (which once put me about 4 feet from the cup a few years back with firm fairways). Ground was soft so I figured I'd be short of the green on the fairway between the bunkers. That part of the landing area is blind but I saw no reason to hit a provisional and was really surprised not to find the ball. Dropped one on the fairway, hit it on the green and two putted. Carded a double bogey 6 for HC.

So, you scored it as though you hit a provision ball where you dropped the second ball.

[Strandly]

If I hit a provisional and my original ball ends up being lost I simply play the provisional and add 2 penalty strokes?

[wadesworld]

If I hit a provisional and my original ball ends up being lost I simply play the provisional and add 2 penalty strokes?

No, you add 1 penalty stroke.

So:

1)  Original stroke

2)  Penalty stroke for lost ball

3)  Stroke at provisional ball

So when you play your next stroke with the provisional, it will be your 4th stroke.

There is a caveat of course that you can keep playing your provisional up until you reach the point where your original ball is likely to be.  So, if you hit a bad provisional and it takes you 2 more strokes to get to the spot where your original is likely to be, when your ball is officially lost, you would be playing your 6th shot (original ball, penalty stroke, provisional off tee, 2 strokes to reach spot where original likely to be).

[Strandly]

No, you add 1 penalty stroke.

So:

1)  Original stroke

2)  Penalty stroke for lost ball

3)  Stroke at provisional ball

So when you play your next stroke with the provisional, it will be your 4th stroke.

There is a caveat of course that you can keep playing your provisional up until you reach the point where your original ball is likely to be.  So, if you hit a bad provisional and it takes you 2 more strokes to get to the spot where your original is likely to be, when your ball is officially lost, you would be playing your 6th shot (original ball, penalty stroke, provisional off tee, 2 strokes to reach spot where original likely to be).

Huh?  So you save a stroke simply by hitting a provisional?  Assuming your provisional drive wasn't terrible of course.  That seems a little odd.

Good to know though.

[Mac62]

Quote:

Originally Posted by wadesworld

No, you add 1 penalty stroke.

So:

1)  Original stroke

2)  Penalty stroke for lost ball

3)  Stroke at provisional ball

So when you play your next stroke with the provisional, it will be your 4th stroke.

There is a caveat of course that you can keep playing your provisional up until you reach the point where your original ball is likely to be.  So, if you hit a bad provisional and it takes you 2 more strokes to get to the spot where your original is likely to be, when your ball is officially lost, you would be playing your 6th shot (original ball, penalty stroke, provisional off tee, 2 strokes to reach spot where original likely to be).

Huh?  So you save a stroke simply by hitting a provisional?  Assuming your provisional drive wasn't terrible of course.  That seems a little odd.

Good to know though.

The oft-used practice of dropping where you think your lost ball may have gone out and adding two strokes is not "legal" by the rules of golf.  A lot of people do it on public courses to keep the pace of play up (avoid going back to the tee for a stroke and distance penalty as you're required to do by the rules), but in a tournament you'd be disqualified for it and technically you're not supposed to do it if you're submitting a round for handicap purposes.

You don't "save a stroke" by hitting a provisional (or by going back to your last location and hitting under penalty of stroke and distance) - you're simply playing in accordance with the Rules of Golf.

The difference between dropping at the (estimated) location of your lost ball and taking two strokes vs. playing your provisional is that the added stroke (when doing it the 'wrong' way) supposedly helps offset the fact that you didn't take the distance penalty by hitting from the location of your last shot.  The correct penalty isn't just one stroke - it's stroke and distance.

Given the original scenario of a lost ball with no provisional (let's assume a tee shot), the proper scoring would look like this:

Original tee shot - 1 stroke.

Can't find lost ball, go back to tee and hit again - 1 penalty stroke plus distance, you're now lying 2, hitting 3....but from the tee, not from where you think your lost ball may have been.

If you played a provisional from the tee, it would look like this:

Original tee shot - 1 stroke.

Provisional - 1 penalty stroke plus distance, you're lying 2 on the tee box and hitting 3.

You go forward and can't find your lost ball, your next stroke at the provisional will be lying 3, hitting 4.

Either way, it's a one stroke penalty plus distance.  The only difference is that by hitting a provisional, you avoid having to go clear back to the tee box and hit again, slowing your group down and pissing off the group behind you.

[mcanadiens]

Good summary @ Mac62.

Hit the flipping provisional. Better yet, hit the first one well and don't hit a provisional.