Pace Problem

[DaveP043]

11 hours ago, TRUCKER said:

(1)The USKIDS tournament caught up to the general public players by the 11th hole. (2)Doesn't happen at my club. (3)Stop trying to "sound" smart all the time. Real intelligent people don't have to try so hard. 

My problem with your original post here wasn't the issue you were complaining about, but the way you made your complaint.  Intentional insults, poor descriptions (the slow play had nothing to do with USKIDS), and poor grammar make you much less credible in my eyes.  Slow play is a common issue, but it won't improve simply because you call someone an "idiot" or "stupid".  More often, you'll get pushback rather than cooperation.  

[IowaGreg]

Just tell the group behind that you are waiting because you plan on driving the green, even if it's a 500 yd par 5...……  LOL

I know my ranges the few times I've made one of those - I wish i could do that all the time- type hits.  I wait until the group ahead is past that.  If i'm shooting for the green, I wait until they are moving away from the green before I even take my stance.  I'll just go ahead and let others play through if they are in that much of a rush and I'm not a slow player, even if I know there are several groups ahead slowing things down.  I can do 9 in less than 1.5 and about 3 for 18. 

 

 

 

[phan52]

6 hours ago, ChetlovesMer said:

I've played a lot of golf in my life and I would argue waiting for a green to clear on a par five isn't the biggest slowdown on a lot of courses I play. Normally, there are at least a couple people in the foursome who aren't going for the green and they can hit their layup shot. They can obviously play while the bigger hitter waits. 

In terms of course issues. I seem to play courses where it is NOT the par 5's that back up. Normally, I find it's the par 3's that are all backed up.

My experience as well. Whether in regular play or outings, but particularly in outings. 

[Double Mocha Man]

In scrambles at my home course the final hole is always backed up a few foursomes. it is a par 5 and everyone thinks they can reach the green in two.  Amazing what a little alcohol can do to the otherwise logical brain.

[TRUCKER]

They're not all going to be perfect, I'm a 12...🤷‍♀️

10 hours ago, iacas said:

You duffed that one.

Badly.

They're not all going to be perfect. I'm a 12...🤷‍♀️

[Cartboy]

All of these slow-play stories sound the same

The other day we had a full tee sheet, with five 4-somes of golf-junket guys starting it off.  Our course is situated so that we can see the 8th fairway (kinda a 2-hour marker) from the club house.  So, I told the GM I would keep an eye on that, as well as being the starter.

Well, their first group was right where they were supposed to be, the ninth tee, but their second group was on the sixth green.  I politely advised them and they agreed to speed up and they said they would catch up with their first group.  Going on, to smooth things over with the groups behind them, a member group said the beverage cart girl said the slow group had been abusive to her.

Incidentally, the slow group was the youngest, most athletic, most fit of the five groups.

Next time around, the slow group was one hole further behind, on a 5:15-5:30 pace.  I called our GM/Pro for advice, which was to go to their first group (three holes ahead) and ask them what they wanted done.  They said to tell them to skip hole(s) to catch up.  They said that group is always a problem.

As the slow group came to the 12th tee, I stopped them and told them to skip that hole, and then catch up with their first group after that.  Of course, "no one was pushing them . . . they were playing a match . . . blah, blah, blah."  I told them this wasn't my idea, this was their group's idea.  Skip this hole, and then pick up pace. 

"No, we'll just speed up."

"You said that last time, and now you're a hole further behind.  Skip this hole or don't skip this hole, that's up to you . . . you've been told what to do.  I can't imagine how taking more than five hours to play a round of golf is fun for that group or anyone behind them."

They were the 8:10 tee time, and when I left at 1:00, they were on the 18th green . . . and the GM/Pro thanked me for getting them under 5 hours.

So, just this week both the GM/Pro and I have been told to FO, literally or figuratively. 

There's no easy fix.  Slow golfers are slow golfers, and they all have their excuses.  Those who think there's an easy fix to slow play probably haven't had to deal with slow play other than to bitch about it.

 

Edited October 11, 2019 by Cartboy

[Double Mocha Man]

7 minutes ago, Cartboy said:

All of these slow-play stories sound the same

The other day we had a full tee sheet, with five 4-somes of golf-junket guys starting it off.  Our course is situated so that we can see the 8th fairway (kinda a 2-hour marker) from the club house.  So, I told the GM I would keep an eye on that, as well as being the starter.

Well, their first group was right where they were supposed to be, the ninth tee, but their second group was on the sixth green.  I politely advised them and they agreed to speed up and they said they would catch up with their first group.  Going on, to smooth things over with the groups behind them, a member group said the beverage cart girl said the slow group had been abusive to her.

Incidentally, the slow group was the youngest, most athletic, most fit of the five groups.

Next time around, the slow group was one hole further behind, on a 5:15-5:30 pace.  I called our GM/Pro for advice, which was to go to their first group (three holes ahead) and ask them what they wanted done.  They said to tell them to skip hole(s) to catch up.  They said that group is always a problem.

As the slow group came to the 12th tee, I stopped them and told them to skip that hole, and then catch up with their first group after that.  Of course, "no one was pushing them . . . they were playing a match . . . blah, blah, blah."  I told them this wasn't my idea, this was their group's idea.  Skip this hole, and then pick up pace. 

"No, we'll just speed up."

"You said that last time, and now you're a hole further behind.  Skip this hole or don't skip this hole, that's up to you . . . you've been told what to do.  I can't imagine how taking more than five hours to play a round of golf is fun for that group or anyone behind them."

They were the 8:10 tee time, and when I left at 1:00, they were on the 18th green . . . and the GM/Pro thanked me for getting them under 5 hours.

So, just this week both the GM/Pro and I have been told to FO, literally or figuratively. 

There's no easy fix.  Slow golfers are slow golfers, and they all have their excuses.  Those who think there's an easy fix to slow play probably haven't had to deal with slow play other than to bitch about it.

 

That was one group of entitled guys. You should see how they treat waitresses!

[David in FL]

8 minutes ago, Cartboy said:

All of these slow-play stories sound the same

The other day we had a full tee sheet, with five 4-somes of golf-junket guys starting it off.  Our course is situated so that we can see the 8th fairway (kinda a 2-hour marker) from the club house.  So, I told the GM I would keep an eye on that, as well as being the starter.

Well, their first group was right where they were supposed to be, the ninth tee, but their second group was on the sixth green.  I politely advised them and they agreed to speed up and they said they would catch up with their first group.  Going on, to smooth things over with the groups behind them, a member group said the beverage cart girl said the slow group had been abusive to her.

Incidentally, the slow group was the youngest, most athletic, most fit of the five groups.

Next time around, the slow group was one hole further behind, on a 5:15-5:30 pace.  I called our GM/Pro for advice, which was to go to their first group (three holes ahead) and ask them what they wanted done.  They said to tell them to skip hole(s) to catch up.  They said that group is always a problem.

As the slow group came to the 12th tee, I stopped them and told them to skip that hole, and then catch up with their first group after that.  Of course, "no one was pushing them . . . they were playing a match . . . blah, blah, blah."  I told them this wasn't my idea, this was their group's idea.  Skip this hole, and then pick up pace. 

"No, we'll just speed up."

"You said that last time, and now you're a hole further behind.  Skip this hole or don't skip this hole, that's up to you . . . you've been told what to do.  I can't imagine how taking more than five hours to play a round of golf is fun for that group or anyone behind them."

They were the 8:10 tee time, and when I left at 1:00, they were on the 18th green . . . and the GM/Pro thanked me for getting them under 5 hours.

So, just this week both the GM/Pro and I have been told to FO, literally or figuratively. 

There's no easy fix.  Slow golfers are slow golfers, and they all have their excuses.  Those who think there's an easy fix to slow play probably haven't had to deal with slow play other than to bitch about it.

 

You’re right in that here is no easy fix.  There is, however, always a fix.  The problem is that the course management is often unwilling to take that next step.

[Double Mocha Man]

They had a fun time at the expense of everyone else. Can you say, selfish?

[phillyk]

20 minutes ago, David in FL said:

You’re right in that here is no easy fix.  There is, however, always a fix.  The problem is that the course management is often unwilling to take that next step.

The problem is how management takes those steps A) you give them a rain check/free round to come back at a different time that's slower, and/or B) Force them out.
Obviously A should be first and B second but some courses are zero tolerance.  My course can't afford to throw people out and lose reputation, so I opt for A and hope they take it or simply speed up.

[David in FL]

10 hours ago, phillyk said:

The problem is how management takes those steps A) you give them a rain check/free round to come back at a different time that's slower, and/or B) Force them out.
Obviously A should be first and B second but some courses are zero tolerance.  My course can't afford to throw people out and lose reputation, so I opt for A and hope they take it or simply speed up.

Of course, it could be argued that a course that refuses to accept bad behavior might gain reputation.

Admittedly, it takes a certain amount of cajones to get there...

[Cartboy]

Yes, there is no easy fix.  No one likes slow play and no one likes to be told they're playing slow.

Everyone now is an internet critic, too. 

I like the idea of spending time with the people behind the slow group, and offering them another round at a discount.  Happy golfers and more revenue.

It's pretty much a thankless job, but we'll to be out there trying.  I've been trying at this course for 11 years.

We are in a touristy, golf-junket destination with a decent selection of top-notch courses.  3 of the top 6 courses in the state, plus some decent lesser ones.  GM/Pro said the 5-tee-time-with-a-slow-group group got a big discount, and he'll remember them.

A few more weeks and it's Winter in FL for me.

😁

[Cartboy]

1 hour ago, Cartboy said:

I like the idea of spending time with the people behind the slow group, and offering them another round at a discount.  Happy golfers and more revenue.

We carry tablets, and can show them the tee sheet for any day, and book them while we're talking to them.

[Patch]

IDK. It seems there are always going to be three groups of golfers on a course at any one time. 1. Faster, 2. average, and 3. slower. All are selfish when it comes to pace of play to some extent. 

This website relies heavily on statistics. Is there a percentage break down of the three groups above?

Faster players don't want to be held up by 1& 2. Average, caught in the middle,  has problems with 1 & 3. Slower doesn't want to be pushed by 1 & 2. 

The only controlling factor of those three groups is the course management people, and how they enforce their rules on pace of play. 

The course management folks are controlled by the revenue that they take in. Their bottom line is making enough money to cover their operating costs. If they lose one of those three groups due to lack of enforcement, or tougher enforcement of pace of play, they lose revenue. This loss of revenue has to be made up some where else. Presumably by the pocket books of the other two groups in the form of higher green fees. That, or diminished course maintenance, which leads to to poorer course, playing conditions.

To avoid higher green fees, some golfers migrate to less expensive courses. (more lost revenue)  Poor playing conditions will cause a continued loss of green fees, and even more lost revenue. 

Too much lost revenue, and the course closes down. The three groups of golfers who used that course, now have to move to another course, causing over crowding, and more pace of play problems.

The over crowded course is making more money. Pace of play control is not on their radar.  

Kind of a vicious circle. 

[David in FL]

13 minutes ago, Patch said:

. Presumably by the pocket books of the other two groups in the form of higher green fees. That, or diminished course maintenance, which leads to to poorer course, playing conditions.

 

Not necessarily.  You forget the possibility (probability) that if, as an example, you get rid of the slow players and increase overall pace of play, you will gain the reputation as a fast course that will attract more fast players.  Swapping slower groups for faster groups also potentially allows for more density on the course and higher overall revenues, all without any increase in fees...

[Vinsk]

12 minutes ago, Patch said:

Poor playing conditions will cause a continued loss of green fees, and even more lost revenue. 

I think many smaller public courses have a general base of players that keep them going strictly from the addicting nature of golf? I used to play a course in East Texas that was just abysmal condition wise. Hard pan ruts in the middle of the fairways, fringes were essentially non-existent and the greens were hit or miss any given day. Yet everyday they had a full tee sheet. And I saw this on several courses throughout my years in Texas. 
My current home course here in Florida is very nice. But they have the pressure of being a tourist’s golf course. The vast majority of players are either visiting tourists from all over the world or snowbirds. They can’t afford to have bad reviews with all the choices available in a small radius. They are fortunate to be very close to Disney but it’s hard to beat the convenience Disney offers if you’re staying on their property. Disney, from my experience, does a pretty damn good job of keeping pace of play. The marshals are very diligent at keeping slower groups moving without offending them.

[phillyk]

9 minutes ago, Patch said:

IDK. It seems there are always going to be three groups of golfers on a course at any one time. 1. Faster, 2. average, and 3. slower. All are selfish when it comes to pace of play to some extent. 

My course is pace rated to 4.5hrs, so when people come in to complain about slow pace, I check our GPS tracker.  If they are within 10min of the desired pace, I tell the group they are on pace.  More than 10min and I start messaging groups to keep up pace.  Having the pace ticker on the screens has helped immensely for some groups to speed up and others to not complain because they realize they are far ahead.

Then again, some people simply don't care.  If there is someone slowing them down, they expect/demand to be let through, no matter if they are ahead or not.  No one is required to let a person/group play through if they are on pace.

I feel like the more I make everyone aware of the expectation, the less complaining I get.  Our pace ticker does that, some course have multiple clocks throughout the course, and some have an active marshal all day.  

On a somewhat related note: I have discussions with my maintenance team about marshals and what their "role" is.  They expect marshal's to be the police of the course, and that is just WRONG! I like the term player's assistant more, because they are out there to ensure everyone is having a good time.  They help look for balls or drop off used ones for people, distribute water, and then if necessary help pace.  It's become more of a police thing recently and golfers hate it.  They see a marshal cart and they automatically assume the worst.  I want people to see them as a helper if they need something, but marshals need to be seen and available for that to happen.

[cutchemist42]

I know the post is old but I dont understand why stableford or matchplay isnt more encouraged. Really helps pace of play in my experience. I know stroke play is very strong in the USA though.