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Posted
2 hours ago, David in FL said:

Not necessarily.  You forget the possibility (probability) that if, as an example, you get rid of the slow players and increase overall pace of play, you will gain the reputation as a fast course that will attract more fast players.  Swapping slower groups for faster groups also potentially allows for more density on the course and higher overall revenues, all without any increase in fees...

I think I lost a post here some where.

Not disagreeing with you @David in FL. However, if you remove the slower players from one course, they will move to another course. The slower player will cause their new course grief. The problem still exists. Just some where else.

The faster player still has the average speed player to deal with on their faster course. That average speed player is now the slower player. 

The possibility also might exist that if the course known for faster players, that there will be "slower" faster players. 

What if the faster known course gets way too many faster players (over crowded) playing at different speeds. 

None of the three groups will all play at the same speed with in their own respective groups. 

All this said, I do like the idea of a course promoting faster play.

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Posted
27 minutes ago, Patch said:

I think I lost a post here some where.

Not disagreeing with you @David in FL. However, if you remove the slower players from one course, they will move to another course. The slower player will cause their new course grief. The problem still exists. Just some where else.

The faster player still has the average speed player to deal with on their faster course. That average speed player is now the slower player. 

The possibility also might exist that if the course known for faster players, that there will be "slower" faster players. 

What if the faster known course gets way too many faster players (over crowded) playing at different speeds. 

None of the three groups will all play at the same speed with in their own respective groups. 

All this said, I do like the idea of a course promoting faster play.

But the overall average speed on the course increases.  That’s good, and faster players will likely gravitate to that course.  Just because they lost slow players, doesn’t necessarily mean they lose revenue.

And if there are courses that accept slow play, well, that’s just fine too.  They get what they accept, and faster players will learn to avoid them.

In David's bag....

Driver: Titleist 910 D-3;  9.5* Diamana Kai'li
3-Wood: Titleist 910F;  15* Diamana Kai'li
Hybrids: Titleist 910H 19* and 21* Diamana Kai'li
Irons: Titleist 695cb 5-Pw

Wedges: Scratch 51-11 TNC grind, Vokey SM-5's;  56-14 F grind and 60-11 K grind
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Posted
20 hours ago, phillyk said:

My course is pace rated to 4.5hrs, so when people come in to complain about slow pace, I check our GPS tracker.  If they are within 10min of the desired pace, I tell the group they are on pace.  More than 10min and I start messaging groups to keep up pace.  Having the pace ticker on the screens has helped immensely for some groups to speed up and others to not complain because they realize they are far ahead.

.....

I feel like the more I make everyone aware of the expectation, the less complaining I get.  Our pace ticker does that, some course have multiple clocks throughout the course, and some have an active marshal all day.  

I've seen the GPS units used exactly this way, and I like it.  The one thing I'd suggest for all courses is that the expectation be set aggressively.  When I was at Talamore (where a few of us have played) over Labor Day weekend, their new GPS units were set to "time par" of about 4:10, which is fairly quick for a resort setting.  In talking to the head pro, he said that the addition of the GPS units has sped up play by 15 to 20 minutes, and the time par notifications was a big part of that improvement.

Dave

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Posted

My brother and I played at Foothills in CO for the first time on Wednesday and it took just over 5 hours to play the round because they let the group in front of us go out with a group of 5.  No ranger, anywhere on the course either.  If you are going to play with 5, you should be cognitive of your pace, not them they took their sweet time every hole.

It was a total joke, you can't get into any type of rhythm when it is 5 to 10 minutes between every shot.  Seriously doubt I will ever play there again.


Posted (edited)
17 minutes ago, Inferno2ss said:

My brother and I played at Foothills in CO for the first time on Wednesday and it took just over 5 hours to play the round because they let the group in front of us go out with a group of 5.  No ranger, anywhere on the course either.  If you are going to play with 5, you should be cognitive of your pace, not them they took their sweet time every hole.

It was a total joke, you can't get into any type of rhythm when it is 5 to 10 minutes between every shot.  Seriously doubt I will ever play there again.

You should send your post to the ownership of the golf course.  Send an email to the head person at Foothills Park & Recreation District and cc the mayor.

Edited by Double Mocha Man

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Posted
Just now, Double Mocha Man said:

You should send your post to the ownership of the golf course.

Whenever I hear of 5-somes I think of the guys that play first thing in the AM at North Bellingham.  Not a soul can catch those guys.  Their key is that they don't really putt. They pick up and move on.

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Posted
6 minutes ago, phillyk said:

Whenever I hear of 5-somes I think of the guys that play first thing in the AM at North Bellingham.  Not a soul can catch those guys.  Their key is that they don't really putt. They pick up and move on.

I have played in a fivesome there with Nathan's blessing.  But we were fast... Matt Cowell, Shane Clarke, Sam Reier... you probably know them.


Posted
20 hours ago, Patch said:

I think I lost a post here some where.

Not disagreeing with you @David in FL. However, if you remove the slower players from one course, they will move to another course. The slower player will cause their new course grief. The problem still exists. Just some where else.

The faster player still has the average speed player to deal with on their faster course. That average speed player is now the slower player. 

The possibility also might exist that if the course known for faster players, that there will be "slower" faster players. 

What if the faster known course gets way too many faster players (over crowded) playing at different speeds. 

None of the three groups will all play at the same speed with in their own respective groups. 

All this said, I do like the idea of a course promoting faster play.

Faster players, like myself, @billchao and @David in FL don’t ridicule players just because they’re slower. I think you’re assuming fast players expect everyone to be as fast or faster. We’re talking about an acceptable pace. I’m fine if I’m on pace for a 4:15 round. I’m not gonna get worked up if a group in front of me is on an acceptable pace for that day as long as it’s reasonable for the current conditions. I don’t think most fast players are basing acceptable pace on whether or not someone is as fast as they are. 

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Posted
On 11/4/2013 at 9:36 AM, Robster 7 said:

The worst thing they ever did was make golf 18 holes. It should've been 12 holes. That way the divorce courts would've been a lot less busy the last 30 yrs or so!;-)

Yeah I think the sport would have been better as well with 12 being common.

Saskatoon has a 12 hole course that is pretty popular. The women I've played with there from work lived 6 holes more than 9 and anecdotally people find 12 holes works better than 18 or 9.

If I were ever to do a course that still wanted to be rated by the USGA for 18 holes I'd make the 12 hole loop come back to the clubhouse. Keller GC in St Paul's has you play 11 holes before the clubhouse which I liked.

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Posted
1 hour ago, cutchemist42 said:

Yeah I think the sport would have been better as well with 12 being common.

Saskatoon has a 12 hole course that is pretty popular. The women I've played with there from work lived 6 holes more than 9 and anecdotally people find 12 holes works better than 18 or 9.

If I were ever to do a course that still wanted to be rated by the USGA for 18 holes I'd make the 12 hole loop come back to the clubhouse. Keller GC in St Paul's has you play 11 holes before the clubhouse which I liked.

Best part about 12 holes is you get to hit the local watering hole after your round and respond to those nosy patrons that you shot a 68.  No need to tell them you were 20 over par... 😊

  • Like 1

Posted

I play nine or twelve instead of eighteen frequently. I can’t believe that 41/2 hours is considered a good pace on almost any course. I’ve played Carnoustie in a competition, in a gale in 3 balls and got round in 3.45hrs. 

pieters.jpg

Thomas Pieters Plays Italian Open Final Round In Under Two Hours - The Belgian got round in under...

 

Stevie T

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Posted
5 minutes ago, Beastie said:

I play nine or twelve instead of eighteen frequently. I can’t believe that 41/2 hours is considered a good pace on almost any course. I’ve played Carnoustie in a competition, in a gale in 3 balls and got round in 3.45hrs. 

pieters.jpg

Thomas Pieters Plays Italian Open Final Round In Under Two Hours - The Belgian got round in under...

 

This is extreme, but I like it. I walk a short course near me in under 2 hours if it is empty. It is only 5000 yards, and the greens are close to the tees in between most holes, but with a pushcart and about 10-15 seconds of set up per shot, I don't even have to run. These guys that pace out every shot or have a 1+ minute pre-shot routine are a disgrace.

  • Like 2
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Posted
4 hours ago, Beastie said:

I play nine or twelve instead of eighteen frequently. I can’t believe that 41/2 hours is considered a good pace on almost any course. I’ve played Carnoustie in a competition, in a gale in 3 balls and got round in 3.45hrs. 

pieters.jpg

Thomas Pieters Plays Italian Open Final Round In Under Two Hours - The Belgian got round in under...

 

4.5 hours being considered fine is just an American view of the game  I think most Americans would find themselves unwelcome if they didnt adjust to the pace in their weekly rounds elsewhere in the world.

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Posted
19 minutes ago, cutchemist42 said:

4.5 hours being considered fine is just an American view of the game  I think most Americans would find themselves unwelcome if they didnt adjust to the pace in their weekly rounds elsewhere in the world.

What country do you think has the fastest pace of play? Asking for when I retire

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Posted
9 hours ago, Vinsk said:

Faster players, like myself, @billchao and @David in FL don’t ridicule players just because they’re slower. I think you’re assuming fast players expect everyone to be as fast or faster. We’re talking about an acceptable pace. I’m fine if I’m on pace for a 4:15 round. I’m not gonna get worked up if a group in front of me is on an acceptable pace for that day as long as it’s reasonable for the current conditions. I don’t think most fast players are basing acceptable pace on whether or not someone is as fast as they are. 

I am not assuming anything. I am just offering up different scenarios on why the problem of slow play will never be solved. Not unless the ruling bodies completely change the game from what we now have. 

I would ask,  if as you say "don't think most fast players are basing acceptable pace on whether, or not someone is as fast as they are", where does the topic of slow play originate? 

I agree that faster players should not ridicule slower players. I have stated before that slow play is not a concern of mine. It is what it is, for that round. I just play my shots, when it's my turn, and move on.

 

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Posted
47 minutes ago, Patch said:

where does the topic of slow play originate? 

Probably an interesting history for sure. But I think sometime, somewhere an ‘average time’ was being noticed as to what an 18 hole round took with a foursome. Maybe in the very early days it was just ire towards slower players than the complaining group, but nowadays I’m saying slow play can be recognized. Poor cart strategy, not preparing for your shot while waiting, spending more than three minutes ball hunting, etc. The origin of slow play? That is interesting @Patch!

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Posted
1 hour ago, Patch said:

I would ask,  if as you say "don't think most fast players are basing acceptable pace on whether, or not someone is as fast as they are", where does the topic of slow play originate? 

I agree that faster players should not ridicule slower players. I have stated before that slow play is not a concern of mine.

 

I don’t care if you’re faster than me or not, but there is a level of what is “acceptable”.  Anything over 3:45, unless someone is holding you up, is unacceptable.
 

If slow players are not held accountable, they will never change…

  • Like 1

In David's bag....

Driver: Titleist 910 D-3;  9.5* Diamana Kai'li
3-Wood: Titleist 910F;  15* Diamana Kai'li
Hybrids: Titleist 910H 19* and 21* Diamana Kai'li
Irons: Titleist 695cb 5-Pw

Wedges: Scratch 51-11 TNC grind, Vokey SM-5's;  56-14 F grind and 60-11 K grind
Putter: Scotty Cameron Kombi S
Ball: ProV1

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Posted
2 hours ago, Bonvivant said:

What country do you think has the fastest pace of play? Asking for when I retire

I've heard Australia and the UK and that they arent afraid to call out someone for ruining a game by being slow.

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    • Please see this topic for updated information:
    • When you've been teaching golf as long as I have, you're going to find that you can teach some things better than you previously had, and you're probably going to find some things that you taught incorrectly. I don't see that as a bad thing — what would be worse is refusing to adapt and grow given new information. I've always said that my goal with my instruction isn't to be right, but it's to get things right. To that end, I'm about five years late in issuing a public proclamation on something… When I first got my GEARS system, I immediately looked at the golf swings of the dozens and dozens of Tour players for which I suddenly had full 3D data. I created a huge spreadsheet showing how their bodies moved, how the club moved, at various points in the swing. I mapped knee and elbow angles, hand speeds, shoulder turns and pelvis turns… etc. I re-considered what I thought I knew about the golf swing as performed by the best players. One of those things dated back to the earliest days: that you extend (I never taught "straighten" and would avoid using that word unless in the context of saying "don't fully straighten") the trail knee/leg in the backswing. I was mislead by 2D photos from less-than-ideal camera angles — the trail leg rotates a bit during the backswing, and so when observing trail knee flex should also use a camera that moves to stay perpendicular to the plane of the ankle/knee/hip joint. We have at least two topics here on this (here and here; both of which I'll be updating after publishing this) where @mvmac and I advise golfers to extend the trail knee. Learning that this was not right is one of the reasons I'm glad to have a 3D system, as most golfers generally preserve the trail knee flex throughout the backswing. Data Here's a video showing an iron and a driver of someone who has won the career slam: Here's what the graph of his right knee flex looks like. The solid lines I've positioned at the top of the backswing (GEARS aligns both swings at impact, the dashed line). Address is to the right, of course, and the graph shows knee flex from the two swings above. The data (17.56° and 23.20°) shows where this player is in both swings (orange being the yellow iron swing, pink the blue driver swing). You can see that this golfer extends his trail knee 2-3°… before bending it even more than that through the late backswing and early downswing. Months ago I created a quick Instagram video showing the trail knee flex in the backswing of several players (see the top for the larger number): Erik J. Barzeski (@iacas) • Instagram reel GEARS shares expert advice on golf swing technique, focusing on the critical backswing phase. Tour winners and major champions reveal the key to a precise and powerful swing, highlighting the importance of... Here are a few more graphs. Two LIV players and major champions: Two PGA Tour winners: Two women's #1 ranked players: Two more PGA Tour winners (one a major champ): Two former #1s, the left one being a woman, the right a man, with a driver: Two more PGA Tour players: You'll notice a trend: they almost all maintain roughly the same flex throughout their backswing and downswing. The Issues with Extending the Trail Knee You can play good golf extending (again, not "straightening") the trail knee. Some Tour players do. But, as with many things, if 95 out of 100 Tour players do it, you're most likely better off doing similarly to what they do. So, what are the issues with extending the trail knee in the backswing? To list a few: Pelvic Depth and Rotation Quality Suffers When the trail knee extends, the trail leg often acts like an axle on the backswing, with the pelvis rotating around the leg and the trail hip joint. This prevents the trail side from gaining depth, as is needed to keep the pelvis center from thrusting toward the ball. Most of the "early extension" (thrust) that I see occurs during the backswing. Encourages Early Extension (Thrust) Patterns When you've thrust and turned around the trail hip joint in the backswing, you often thrust a bit more in the downswing as the direction your pelvis is oriented is forward and "out" (to the right for a righty). Your trail leg can abduct to push you forward, but "forward" when your pelvis is turned like that is in the "thrust" direction. Additionally, the trail knee "breaking" again at the start of the downswing often jumps the trail hip out toward the ball a bit too much or too quickly. While the trail hip does move in that direction, if it's too fast or too much, it can prevent the lead side hip from getting "back" at the right rate, or at a rate commensurate with the trail hip to keep the pelvis center from thrusting. Disrupts the Pressure Shift/Transition When the trail leg extends too much, it often can't "push" forward normally. The forward push begins much earlier than forward motion begins — pushing forward begins as early as about P1.5 to P2 in the swings of most good golfers. It can push forward by abducting, again, but that's a weaker movement that shoves the pelvis forward (toward the target) and turns it more than it generally should (see the next point). Limits Internal Rotation of the Trail Hip Internal rotation of the trail hip is a sort of "limiter" on the backswing. I have seen many golfers on GEARS whose trail knee extends, whose pelvis shifts forward (toward the target), and who turn over 50°, 60°, and rarely but not never, over 70° in the backswing. If you turn 60° in the backswing, it's going to be almost impossible to get "open enough" in the downswing to arrive at a good impact position. Swaying/Lateral Motion Occasionally a golfer who extends the trail knee too much will shift back too far, but more often the issue is that the golfer will shift forward too early in the backswing (sometimes even immediately to begin the backswing), leaving them "stuck forward" to begin the downswing. They'll push forward, stop, and have to restart around P4, disrupting the smooth sequence often seen in the game's best players. Other Bits… Reduces ground reaction force potential, compromises spine inclination and posture, makes transition sequencing harder, increases stress on the trail knee and lower back… In short… It's not athletic. We don't do many athletic things with "straight" or very extended legs (unless it's the end of the action, like a jump or a big push off like a step in a running motion).
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