Should Divots Be Considered Ground Under Repair?

[Abu3baid]

[quote name="Abu3baid" url="/t/70984/should-divots-be-considered-ground-under-repair/414#post_1019954"] 3.  The guy/girl hit it on the "Fairway" what more is expected from them?

Please, tell me you're not serious. What is expected of them is that they should play the ball as it lies. That's at the heart of the game. Hitting the ball in the fairway gives one a better chance of a good lie, but it's not a guarantee. The game requires that you learn to make shots that the course conditions require, not that you change the course conditions so that you only have to make the shots you can play. I suggest you don't try playing a links course in Scotland. Hit the ball in the middle of the fairway and you're quite likely to have it run off into a bunker. That's sort of the point.[/quote] That is fine, but please don't ever think of playing a course when it has rained the day before or morning of and thy apply the LPC rules.. Also, don't think of taking relief if your ball ends up in an animal borrow of any sort! Although I have to admit your example of the ball running off into the bunker doesn't really relate to this conversation.. I mean how did you tie these two things together...? Come on... I do have a reasonable expectation that I will have a pretty good lie on the fairway.. And it is not like I am saying if it is not a perfectly mown piece of grass that I can move it.. I am saying if it is a divot or what looks or seems like a divot.. Besides we are all a bunch of honest golfers we would never try and take advantage of the rules right?

[luu5]

I do have a reasonable expectation that I will have a pretty good lie on the fairway.. And it is not like I am saying if it is not a perfectly mown piece of grass that I can move it.. I am saying if it is a divot or what looks or seems like a divot.. Besides we are all a bunch of honest golfers we would never try and take advantage of the rules right?

How many times you are in a divot in one round? Probably not even once. I do not know what is wrong with the courses I play, but I have not been in a divot during my last 30 rounds at all.

[Gunther]

How many times you are in a divot in one round? Probably not even once. I do not know what is wrong with the courses I play, but I have not been in a divot during my last 30 rounds at all.

It's a good point, I don't think I have either but it happens to the pros a lot more frequently than us, although still maybe once every 5 or 10 rounds so not a huge issue. That could be an argument either for or against a rule change.

[shfboyroddy]

I always wonder this when I watch tournament play ie. Masters, Players, Open.... I watch the drives and the ball run down and around the fairway through many of "divots"/ previous iron approach shot locations I wonder, do they ever replace divots during tourneys or do they just sand/seed them and then all of the divots are replaced by the course crew at the end of the day?

[Abu3baid]

[QUOTE]  I do have a reasonable expectation that I will have a pretty good lie on the fairway.. And it is not like I am saying if it is not a perfectly mown piece of grass that I can move it.. I am saying if it is a divot or what looks or seems like a divot.. Besides we are all a bunch of honest golfers we would never try and take advantage of the rules right?[/QUOTE] How many times you are in a divot in one round? Probably not even once. I do not know what is wrong with the courses I play, but I have not been in a divot during my last 30 rounds at all.

[quote name="Gunther" url="/t/70984/should-divots-be-considered-ground-under-repair/430_10#post_1019987"][quote name="luu5" url="/t/70984/should-divots-be-considered-ground-under-repair/420#post_1019984"] How many times you are in a divot in one round? Probably not even once. I do not know what is wrong with the courses I play, but I have not been in a divot during my last 30 rounds at all. [/quote] It's a good point, I don't think I have either but it happens to the pros a lot more frequently than us, although still maybe once every 5 or 10 rounds so not a huge issue. That could be an argument either for or against a rule change.[/quote] Agreed it hasn't happened to me except maybe once in 2 years or something, but then again how often something happens really can't be used as an argument for or against in my opinion!

[David in FL]

No that isn't true... You don't play the course as you find it if the ball is in a puddle of water do you? We are exploring an issue that has obviously been raised before and will be raised again, someone thought about and decided at some point that hey we should introduce LCP to the game, accordingly I'm assuming that you would not take advantage of that exception and you would play it as it lay because playing that way is more pure?

What you're missing, or choosing to ignore, is that casual water, conditions resulting in the committee implementing LCP, or ground under repair all are examples of abnormal ground conditions.

A divot is a completely normal condition found on every golf course, every day.  Nothing abnormal about it and as such, even though it's unfortunate, and less than ideal, it's part of the game and we accept the bad breaks with the good.

Although I have to admit your example of the ball running off into the bunker doesn't really relate to this conversation.. I mean how did you tie these two things together...?

And that's exactly how the two are tied together.  The divot, and the strategically placed bunker are both normal course conditions that must be dealt with....

[colin007]

I always wonder this when I watch tournament play ie. Masters, Players, Open.... I watch the drives and the ball run down and around the fairway through many of "divots"/ previous iron approach shot locations I wonder, do they ever replace divots during tourneys or do they just sand/seed them and then all of the divots are replaced by the course crew at the end of the day?

I think they just fill them with the sand/seed mixture. If you replace your divot, the next time a mower goes by it'll tear that divot to shreds. Even if it doesn't, the divot that you replace will never reattach itself and grow grass again. They ask you to replace them for cosmetic reasons because it looks better than having divots strewn all over the place.

[Abu3baid]

[QUOTE name="Abu3baid" url="/t/70984/should-divots-be-considered-ground-under-repair/414#post_1019970"] No that isn't true... You don't play the course as you find it if the ball is in a puddle of water do you? We are exploring an issue that has obviously been raised before and will be raised again, someone thought about and decided at some point that hey we should introduce LCP to the game, accordingly I'm assuming that you would not take advantage of that exception and you would play it as it lay because playing that way is more pure?  [/QUOTE] What you're missing, or choosing to ignore, is that casual water, conditions resulting in the committee implementing LCP, or ground under repair all are examples of abnormal ground conditions. A divot is a completely normal condition found on every golf course, every day.  Nothing abnormal about it and as such, even though it's unfortunate, and less than ideal, it's part of the game and we accept the bad breaks with the good. [QUOTE name="Abu3baid" url="/t/70984/should-divots-be-considered-ground-under-repair/432#post_1019981"] Although I have to admit your example of the ball running off into the bunker doesn't really relate to this conversation.. I mean how did you tie these two things together...?  [/QUOTE] And that's exactly how the two are tied together.  The divot, and the strategically placed bunker are both normal course conditions that must be dealt with....

Causal water was deemed abnormal by the committee and it was based on what? It is an arbitrary decision taken as I can argue the casual water is actual very normal on a golf course especially the ones that have sprinkler systems and water the grass every so often (unless you are playing in Jeddah KSA where they have a course of just desert and you bring a rug with you that you hit off)! Divots just like sticks and just like little casual water and an animal borrow are all normally found on a golf course.. You make the distinction (along with the rule makers) while I don't that is the only difference really.. I don't think the original golfers had it part of the design for divots to be the unlucky break.. I just think they overlooked it and then people felt compelled not to change the rule to include divots as abnormal conditions.. Besides that is the argument we are having isn't it? So to tell me that I am not differentiating between those things doesn't make sense.. I don't! Because if I did I would be on your side of the fence! They are all abnormal conditions.. Some caused naturally and some caused by golfers!

[iacas]

Causal water was deemed abnormal by the committee and it was based on what? It is an arbitrary decision taken as I can argue the casual water is actual very normal on a golf course

It is not arbitrary, nor is casual water "very normal on a golf course." Golf is a sport played on land, not on water.

Divots just like sticks and just like little casual water and an animal borrow are all normally found on a golf course.. You make the distinction (along with the rule makers) while I don't that is the only difference really.

Casual water is not normally found on a golf course. Sticks you can move, unless your ball will be moved by them.

Tell you what, Eyad: if you can figure out how to move a divot hole from under your ball without moving your ball, I'll let you have that.

I don't think the original golfers had it part of the design for divots to be the unlucky break. I just think they overlooked it and then people felt compelled not to change the rule to include divots as abnormal conditions..

We aren't using the original rules that were devised centuries ago. The rules are looked at every few years and have undergone many changes. The PRINCIPLES of the original rules remain, which is why we play the ball as it lies except in extraordinary or "abnormal" situations.

Divot holes are neither.

Besides that is the argument we are having isn't it?

The purpose of the Rules is not to ensure that players are having fun.

[David in FL]

Causal water was deemed abnormal by the committee......

No.  Casual water is deemed abnormal by The Rules, based upon the core, guiding principles behind The Rules.  The committee has nothing to do with it.

Divots just like sticks and just like little casual water and an animal borrow are all normally found on a golf course. You make the distinction (along with the rule makers) while I don't that is the only difference really..

Sticks are a great example.  They are not deemed abnormal either.  You cannot move your ball to obtain relief from a stick, or any other loose impediment.  In a hazard, you can't even remove the loose impediment itself.

I don't think the original golfers had it part of the design for divots to be the unlucky break.. I just think they overlooked it, and then people felt compelled not to change the rule to include divots as abnormal conditions..

Those who have studied the history of the game, and the core principles behind the rules themselves, disagree.  In fact, they've concluded the exact opposite.

Quote:

So to tell me that I am not differentiating between those things doesn't make sense.. I don't! Because if I did I would be on your side of the fence! They are all abnormal conditions.. Some caused naturally and some caused by golfers!

You're right, and that's why I'll stop beating this horse.  You don't understand the principles behind the rules and why one condition is deemed a normal part of the game, and another is not.

I'm going to make an assumption based on your arguments that you haven't read Richard Tufts book The Principles Behind The Rules of Golf. It's an interesting, quick read (little more than a pamphlet and available from the USGA for something like $2) and explains the reasoning behind the rules and how decisions about the rules themselves take those core principles into account in order to preserve the integrity of the game.  I'd encourage you, and anyone else genuinely interested in the game and the rules, to take the time to read it.

[turtleback]

To be totally honest I really feel strongly that golf is meant to be played with all the lucky and unlucky breaks.

I completely agree with this statement.  People who are looking for the rule to protect themselves against bad breaks somehow never seem to mind when they benefit from good breaks.  They want a drop out of a fairway divot, but they do not want to throw their ball into the woods when an errant tee shot hits a tree and is deflected into the fairway.  It shows, for me, a complete misunderstanding of the fundamental nature of golf, which is about overcoming as much as anything.  I do not see the other side of the argument at all.

[14ledo81]

Quote:

Originally Posted by 14ledo81

1) When is a divot (hole) a divot (hole)? (Like @iacas said before "what if it is only partially stripped?)

2) When has the divot (hole) healed enough to no longer be called a divot (hole)?

The answer to both of these questions is way to subjective to be a part of a unified rules system.

Absolutely incorrect. Same could be said of pitch marks on the green. If you're not sure whether it's a pitch mark, ask your partner. If both aren't sure, ask an official. Doesn't matter how long it's been healed. Same should be true of divots. This is the weakest of the "let's hit from divots" arguments.

The strongest is around how to define fairway since rules use the term through the green. I think preferred lie terminology could be employed but I also recognize that is a stretch.

What if I am playing by myself?  Who decides if it is a divot (hole) then?

Or maybe I am playing with a partner.  We are both unsure.  My home course may have one old lady working at the time, and she does not know the rules, care about the rules, and is certainly not going to come out to the 6th fairway to decide if my ball is in a divot (hole).

ummmm.... I wasn't talking about LCP.. I'm talking about the divot rule change.. The relief would only be applicable to the Fairway you are playing and not the rough, other fairways or other greens.. Only the Fairway between you and your green!

So, let me summarize where I am and I really don't want to discuss what is a Fairway anymore as I think we just all go around in circles playing semantics.. we all know what a Fairway is!!

1.  When someone hits it on the "Fairway" and it is in a divot then they should get relief just like they do when the ball is embedded into the fairway and there is little water at the bottom

2.  If you have doubt that this is a divot or was a divot then it is a divot

3.  The guy/girl hit it on the "Fairway" what more is expected from them?

What if we (you and I) are playing match play.  It is the 18th hole and the match (we are playing for $10,000 ) is on the line.  I hit my ball in the "fairway", and I think the grass looks a bit dingy/ratty.  I am in doubt.  This may be a divot hole.  I decide that I will proceed with a "free" drop (or whatever you else your are proposing for relief).  But wait, you don't think it is a divot (hole).  What are we to do then?  Keep in mind, this is a friendly match involving only us.  No officials around.

[Golfingdad]

What if I am playing by myself?  Who decides if it is a divot (hole) then?

I think these are straw men.  Divot holes as ground under repair is lame and @David in FL f it all goes towards LCP, then golf is out the window.  But all of these hypotheticals trying to explain why the rule wouldn't work don't fly.

How do you decide if it's a pitch mark or a ball mark when you are playing by yourself?  How about if the ball moved or oscillated when you addressed it when you're playing by yourself?  If it's casual water or just damp when playing by yourself?

What if we (you and I) are playing match play.  It is the 18th hole and the match (we are playing for $10,000 ) is on the line.  I hit my ball in the "fairway", and I think the grass looks a bit dingy/ratty.  I am in doubt.  This may be a divot hole.  I decide that I will proceed with a "free" drop (or whatever you else your are proposing for relief).  But wait, you don't think it is a divot (hole).  What are we to do then?  Keep in mind, this is a friendly match involving only us.  No officials around.

Another silly "what if" as if disputes between competitors don't already occur.

What do you do in said match when the examples I just listed come up in a heated match and both guys disagree?  Or how about when you say that the cart path interferes with your stance and your partner disagrees and thinks you're trying to pull a fast one on him?

Rules disputes already occur, so don't pretend like this would never work because it would create disputes.

It wouldn't work because it's dumb and not golf, but not because the application is so impossible to work out.

[Gunther]

What if I am playing by myself?  Who decides if it is a divot (hole) then?   Or maybe I am playing with a partner.  We are both unsure.  My home course may have one old lady working at the time, and she does not know the rules, care about the rules, and is certainly not going to come out to the 6th fairway to decide if my ball is in a divot (hole).

Think I mentioned that the same rules would apply to repairing pitch marks on the green. What do you do now when they're in your line and you're not sure the depression is from a pitch mark a week ago or some other aberration? Play it as you see it.

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abu3baid

I don't really need to show you where in the rules it is defined.. The fairway is well known to everyone.

It is used when they apply the LCP don't they? They deferentiate it when thy calculate fairway hits don't they? I think this is a very small issue that can be dealt with later and has no bearing on the conversation.. Granted everything I am saying doesn't apply to outside this fairway as play as it lay applies there!

In the mean time my comment still stands :)

Your entire statement has a null connotation when you use undefined terms.  There is no such thing as LCP either.  Understanding the terminology is key to understanding the rules.  That is why the Definitions section is placed before the list of Rules.

Just for the point of discussion, there is no mention of rough in the rules either.  "Rough" is simply a colloquialism within the game, the same as "fairway", "pin", or "sand trap".  None of those terms has any existence in the rules.

When you use such terminology in a rules discussion, you demonstrate your lack of understanding of the rules and their underlying principles.

Quote:

Come on... I do have a reasonable expectation that I will have a pretty good lie on the fairway..

Maybe you need to change your expectations then.

[14ledo81]

Quote:

Originally Posted by 14ledo81

What if I am playing by myself?  Who decides if it is a divot (hole) then?

How do you decide if it's a pitch mark or a ball mark when you are playing by yourself?  How about if the ball moved or oscillated when you addressed it when you're playing by yourself?  If it's casual water or just damp when playing by yourself?

Quote:

Originally Posted by 14ledo81

What if we (you and I) are playing match play.  It is the 18th hole and the match (we are playing for $10,000 ) is on the line.  I hit my ball in the "fairway", and I think the grass looks a bit dingy/ratty.  I am in doubt.  This may be a divot hole.  I decide that I will proceed with a "free" drop (or whatever you else your are proposing for relief).  But wait, you don't think it is a divot (hole).  What are we to do then?  Keep in mind, this is a friendly match involving only us.  No officials around.

Another silly "what if" as if disputes between competitors don't already occur.

What do you do in said match when the examples I just listed come up in a heated match and both guys disagree?  Or how about when you say that the cart path interferes with your stance and your partner disagrees and thinks you're trying to pull a fast one on him?

Rules disputes already occur, so don't pretend like this would never work because it would create disputes.

It wouldn't work because it's dumb and not golf, but not because the application is so impossible to work out.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 14ledo81

What if I am playing by myself?  Who decides if it is a divot (hole) then?

Or maybe I am playing with a partner.  We are both unsure.  My home course may have one old lady working at the time, and she does not know the rules, care about the rules, and is certainly not going to come out to the 6th fairway to decide if my ball is in a divot (hole).

Think I mentioned that the same rules would apply to repairing pitch marks on the green. What do you do now when they're in your line and you're not sure the depression is from a pitch mark a week ago or some other aberration? Play it as you see it.

We already have disputes as is.  Why make the rules more discretionary so as to add more possible disputes?

[David in FL]

How do you decide if it's a pitch mark or a ball mark when you are playing by yourself?  How about if the ball moved or oscillated when you addressed it when you're playing by yourself?  If it's casual water or just damp when playing by yourself?

It's either positively a pitch mark, or you're not allowed to repair it on the green.  The ball either moved, or it oscillated.  It either meets the definition of casual water, or it does not.  All of your examples are well defined.  If someone chooses to ignore those definitions, or take liberty with them, then that's an issue for the committee, or in a casual round it's their decision how to play the game, but it doesn't mean that those items are subjective.

[Gunther]

We already have disputes as is.  Why make the rules more discretionary so as to add more possible disputes?

That is a much stronger argument in favor of hitting from divots than your previous one.