Cary Schoen and The Lower Body Lie That Is Devastating Golf (Troll Thread)

[newtogolf]

Results are what I expected, Cary just can't help himself.  We tried, but he either doesn't know any secrets or his goal is to sell them.

Cary should learn from Jim McLean on how to make money by claiming to have figured out Hogan's secrets, he obviously doesn't have a clue.

[boogielicious]

Agree, retaining too much forward flexion is a bad thing.

Compared to Hogan, which we assume he's trying to model, you can see how much more "thrust" Hogan puts in.  Note the secondary axis tilt due to the lower center being forward with the head steady on the right and the belt buckle is pointing towards the sky.  Hogan is releasing his forward flexion.

This is exactly what @mvmac had me work on a couple of years ago.  Going from the left photo to the right.

[iacas]

Results are what I expected, Cary just can't help himself.  We tried, but he either doesn't know any secrets or his goal is to sell them.

Yes. I don't think we could have been any clearer. And Hogan did not swing the way Cary's method instructs.

[billchao]

And Hogan did not swing the way Cary's method instructs.

This is probably OT (not that it matters on this thread), but why do people think Hogan is the holy grail of golf? I saw that you mentioned something about it earlier. Do you think people just latched onto "the secret" and it's become kind of a psychological need to decipher it?

When I first started, I fell into this line of thinking. Because a lot of resources online are devoted to his swing, I figured that it must be the ideal that people are trying to achieve. I have a similar build as Hogan, so I figured it would be a good swing to try to emulate. I don't really think much about his swing anymore, but sometimes I'll be studying a piece and I'll find myself looking for Hogan's swing to see if he did it. I guess the mindset is hard to get out of.

[Abu3baid]

This is probably OT (not that it matters on this thread), but why do people think Hogan is the holy grail of golf? I saw that you mentioned something about it earlier. Do you think people just latched onto "the secret" and it's become kind of a psychological need to decipher it? When I first started, I fell into this line of thinking. Because a lot of resources online are devoted to his swing, I figured that it must be the ideal that people are trying to achieve. I have a similar build as Hogan, so I figured it would be a good swing to try to emulate. I don't really think much about his swing anymore, but sometimes I'll be studying a piece and I'll find myself looking for Hogan's swing to see if he did it. I guess the mindset is hard to get out of.

I don't know about hogans secret, but what I do know is that he has a pretty darn sweet golf swing..leaves you in aww after watching it a few times, as it is pretty and seems efficient enough :) As for this Cary guy, he just doesn't know how to express him self we should have some pitty on the guy and lock this thread ASAP as he has been smoked out bad!

[newtogolf]

This is probably OT (not that it matters on this thread), but why do people think Hogan is the holy grail of golf? I saw that you mentioned something about it earlier. Do you think people just latched onto "the secret" and it's become kind of a psychological need to decipher it?

When I first started, I fell into this line of thinking. Because a lot of resources online are devoted to his swing, I figured that it must be the ideal that people are trying to achieve. I have a similar build as Hogan, so I figured it would be a good swing to try to emulate. I don't really think much about his swing anymore, but sometimes I'll be studying a piece and I'll find myself looking for Hogan's swing to see if he did it. I guess the mindset is hard to get out of.

Hogan created the mystique surrounding his secret (for financial and competitive gains) and that combined with the amazing success he had after an almost near fatal car accident led people to believe even more in the existence of a secret.

Hogan had a great swing, and it was very consistent after he fixed his hook.  I never got to see him play live, but the books and video's on him are very complimentary and make it seem as his swing was one of the best in the history of golf.  Dufner claims to have modeled his swing after Hogan and Dufner is one of the best iron strikers on Tour so maybe there is something to it.

[Ernest Jones]

Hogan created the mystique surrounding his secret (for financial and competitive gains) and that combined with the amazing success he had after an almost near fatal car accident led people to believe even more in the existence of a secret.

Hogan had a great swing, and it was very consistent after he fixed his hook.  I never got to see him play live, but the books and video's on him are very complimentary and make it seem as his swing was one of the best in the history of golf.  Dufner claims to have modeled his swing after Hogan and Dufner is one of the best iron strikers on Tour so maybe there is something to it.

I think @mvmac put it best, Hogan definitely had a secret, a secret that pertained to his swing. This "secret" probably wouldn't do anything for someone else unless the had the exact same priority "micro piece", and even then, it's most likely feel based so it still might not do anything for you even if you did happen to have the exact same "micro priority piece". That's not actually what Mike said but it's how I interpreted it.

[Lihu]

[QUOTE name="billchao" url="/t/71453/cary-schoen-and-the-lower-body-lie-that-is-devastating-golf-troll-thread/180_30#post_929837"]   This is probably OT (not that it matters on this thread), but why do people think Hogan is the holy grail of golf? I saw that you mentioned something about it earlier. Do you think people just latched onto "the secret" and it's become kind of a psychological need to decipher it? When I first started, I fell into this line of thinking. Because a lot of resources online are devoted to his swing, I figured that it must be the ideal that people are trying to achieve. I have a similar build as Hogan, so I figured it would be a good swing to try to emulate. I don't really think much about his swing anymore, but sometimes I'll be studying a piece and I'll find myself looking for Hogan's swing to see if he did it. I guess the mindset is hard to get out of. [/QUOTE] Hogan created the mystique surrounding his secret (for financial and competitive gains) and that combined with the amazing success he had after an almost near fatal car accident led people to believe even more in the existence of a secret. Hogan had a great swing, and it was very consistent after he fixed his hook.  I never got to see him play live, but the books and video's on him are very complimentary and make it seem as his swing was one of the best in the history of golf.  Dufner claims to have modeled his swing after Hogan and Dufner is one of the best iron strikers on Tour so maybe there is something to it.

Hogan was a very private person, and not like any of the other famous players of his time. He was physically smaller, but hit farther than most. His irons were solid, but he practiced a lot. He said it himself, practice a lot. He told his students to hit 10,000 balls to get to the next level. He designed and made really good irons. The only mystique I see is the fact that he had such a tremendous personal drive towards perfection. That's why he was so great.

[newtogolf]

Hogan was a very private person, and not like any of the other famous players of his time. He was physically smaller, but hit farther than most. His irons were solid, but he practiced a lot.

He said it himself, practice a lot. He told his students to hit 10,000 balls to get to the next level.

He designed and made really good irons.

The only mystique I see is the fact that he had such a tremendous personal drive towards perfection. That's why he was so great.

He was a very private person but also had a tough life.  He witnessed his father commit suicide and had to work at a very young age to help support his family.  He struggled to make it as a professional golfer and never felt he as financially rewarded as well as he should have been.  The books that have been written about him claim he's the one that touted he had a secret but he wouldn't share it because he was afraid it would help his competitors.

He was also the one that pushed for the magazine article, television special and big payday to share his secret.

[iacas]

For a guy who claims to want to swing like Hogan, specifically about a "Lower Body Lie" and some mysterious (because he never actually told us anything about it) bit to deal with the "pivot," I'm having a hard time coming up with a swing that's LESS LIKE Ben Hogan's swing than Aaron Suarez's ( @Mr Playerhater ?).

[Ernest Jones]

For a guy who claims to want to swing like Hogan, specifically about a "Lower Body Lie" and some mysterious (because he never actually told us anything about it) bit to deal with the "pivot," I'm having a hard time coming up with a swing that's LESS LIKE Ben Hogan's swing than Aaron Suarez's (@Mr Playerhater?).

I have to admit, I was hoping @Mr Playerhater would elaborate on the thinking behind that planted right foot, seeing as how Mr.Schoen wouldn't. I have no interest in incorporating it myself but would like to hear the theory nonetheless.

Maybe he could post a "my swing" thread, or just a swing in this thread? If he is a +2.5 I would like to see that swing...

[newtogolf]

For a guy who claims to want to swing like Hogan, specifically about a "Lower Body Lie" and some mysterious (because he never actually told us anything about it) bit to deal with the "pivot," I'm having a hard time coming up with a swing that's LESS LIKE Ben Hogan's swing than Aaron Suarez's (@Mr Playerhater?).

Just looking at the picture makes my body hurt.  I'm by no means a swing coach but I don't see how anyone can think that's a natural swing motion.  Imagine if baseball players or hockey players didn't try to engage their lower body, they'd strain and tear their abs and intercostal muscles trying to power the swing.

[Lihu]

[URL=http://thesandtrap.com/content/type/61/id/87817/] [/URL] For a guy who claims to want to swing like Hogan, specifically about a "Lower Body Lie" and some mysterious (because he never actually told us anything about it) bit to deal with the "pivot," I'm having a hard time coming up with a swing that's LESS LIKE Ben Hogan's swing than Aaron Suarez's ( @Mr Playerhater ?).

Yeah, the left picture makes me cringe in pain. :pound:

[Golfingdad]

Agree, retaining too much forward flexion is a bad thing.

Compared to Hogan, which we assume he's trying to model, you can see how much more "thrust" Hogan puts in.  Note the secondary axis tilt due to the lower center being forward with the head steady on the right and the belt buckle is pointing towards the sky.  Hogan is releasing his forward flexion.

For a guy who claims to want to swing like Hogan, specifically about a "Lower Body Lie" and some mysterious (because he never actually told us anything about it) bit to deal with the "pivot," I'm having a hard time coming up with a swing that's LESS LIKE Ben Hogan's swing than Aaron Suarez's (@Mr Playerhater?).

Bear with me here.  What if you photoshopped a left handed driver (and in the top picture you have to do something with the hands too) and imagined the top picture as an A3.9 or 4, and the bottom picture as an A3 ... that's not so bad, is it?  The top pic (specifically the right foot) reminds me of a left-handed Phil Mickelson on his backswing.

[MS256]

Yeah, the left picture makes me cringe in pain.

My back is probably one of the very few parts of my body that has never had an injury and I would prefer to keep it that way. That reason alone would keep me away from the swing on the left. There are a lot of swings I would copy if I could but that's certainly not one of them.

Plus I'm not buying that there's any real club head speed portrayed in that pic either.

[mvmac]

Ok this is off topic but I'm going to respond anyway

This is probably OT (not that it matters on this thread), but why do people think Hogan is the holy grail of golf? I saw that you mentioned something about it earlier. Do you think people just latched onto "the secret" and it's become kind of a psychological need to decipher it?

When I first started, I fell into this line of thinking. Because a lot of resources online are devoted to his swing, I figured that it must be the ideal that people are trying to achieve. I have a similar build as Hogan, so I figured it would be a good swing to try to emulate. I don't really think much about his swing anymore, but sometimes I'll be studying a piece and I'll find myself looking for Hogan's swing to see if he did it. I guess the mindset is hard to get out of.

The fact that he hit it really well, hit a lot of fairways and greens.  I've read this but not sure if it's true, '53 Masters he hit every GIR except for 11 which he missed to the right on purpose.  Stories like that mixed in with other golfers talking about how great he hit it, people writing books about how great he hit, Hogan writing a book about his golf swing, mixed in with him saying he has the secret will create the "Holy Grail" effect.

So if he hit perfect golf shots then people figure he has the perfect swing, let's copy that.  Rather than ask and see what the commonalities of all great swings are I also think part of it is that Hogan "built" his own swing, his own model.  So if he could learn the "perfect" swing, so can I.

I don't know about hogans secret, but what I do know is that he has a pretty darn sweet golf swing..leaves you in aww after watching it a few times, as it is pretty and seems efficient enough :)

No doubt it's an aesthetically pleasing motion.

Hogan had a great swing, and it was very consistent after he fixed his hook.  I never got to see him play live, but the books and video's on him are very complimentary and make it seem as his swing was one of the best in the history of golf.  Dufner claims to have modeled his swing after Hogan and Dufner is one of the best iron strikers on Tour so maybe there is something to it.

Yes he has and the backswing is pretty close.  Downswing not as much but still a very good swing.

I think @mvmac put it best, Hogan definitely had a secret, a secret that pertained to his swing. This "secret" probably wouldn't do anything for someone else unless the had the exact same priority "micro piece", and even then, it's most likely feel based so it still might not do anything for you even if you did happen to have the exact same "micro priority piece". That's not actually what Mike said but it's how I interpreted it.

Yeah let's say the secret was to dorsiflex (cup) the left wrist at A4.  Well, what if I already do that and in order to feel cupped I over do it.  Or what if I work on feeling the secret and my weight is only 55% forward at impact, then what my left wrist is doing isn't all that important.

Ok now back on topic!

[newtogolf]

Ok now back on topic!

What exactly is the topic of this thread now that Cary and other personalities are banned

[Lihu]

[QUOTE name="mvmac" url="/t/71453/cary-schoen-and-the-lower-body-lie-that-is-devastating-golf-troll-thread/210_30#post_929900"]   Ok now back on topic!  :-P [/QUOTE] What exactly is the topic of this thread now that Cary and other personalities are banned

It is a compelling title, though. I was going to ask if there even was a topic, since there was no real explanation as to what we were trying to discuss. However, after seeing Erik's last post, I figured out pretty quickly why he was so quick to ban him from this site for fear of injury lawsuits.