Tiger Woods Master Catch-All Discussion

[Double Mocha Man]

2 minutes ago, iacas said:

8 minutes ago, Double Mocha Man said:

Are they outliers?

Yes.

No, they are not outliers.  They were just more dedicated than the men.  I think the guys, because they are guys, thought it was a no-brainer.  I mean, hell, who can't beat a woman.  Erik, where does Natalie stand on this?

[GolfLug]

4 minutes ago, iacas said:

Plus, attend a tournament, and watch the guys. They joke around, they talk, etc. during rounds. They're slow. They have a LOT of time out there.

Fair enough.

[Vinsk]

19 minutes ago, Double Mocha Man said:

No, they are not outliers. 

Of course they are. And don’t tell me they out lifted all the men. Agility/obstacle course? Sure. But what you’re doing is trying to equate their obvious disadvantages and staring they’re as or better than all the men. No they’re not. You have to compare level to level.
A CrossFit bad ass woman beating an overweight man in a hose carrying race doesn’t mean she’s just as capable of ‘men’. Any man who’s equally fit comparatively would easily defeat your super women. Just like Tiger and JT can easily out drive any woman on the LPGA. 

Natalie can probably out drive me. But she’s a young, fit and much better golfer than I am. But an equally gifted male golfer her age and even younger, she would struggle to out drive. I get that his joke was poor taste. But it’s not diminishing woman as it’s just a fact that men hit the ball further than women. That’s not even up for debate. 
 

Why do LPGA players play shorter courses? Hmmm? Why? That’s what Tiger was joking about. Sorry. It’s just true.

[Double Mocha Man]

Kevin, you seem to be going to great lengths to justify what Tiger did. I already stated that on the whole, physically, women are not as strong as men.

How do you feel about this statement, which I just read on the USA Today Sports Page?

"I’m guessing most of the millions of fathers and mothers who support their athletic daughters probably have long since retired all their juvenile pranks that were intended to demean the ability of those girls they love and for whom they spend so much time cheering."

[Vinsk]

No. What I’m saying is people love to jump on the ‘demeaning’ wagon too easily. Is it demeaning to have the ladies play from shorter tees than the men? Why doesn’t that offend them? And this is sports.

If women are going to feel offended by cold facts, that’s their issue. They don’t hit it as far. So what? Nobody cares. Except if it’s brought to light in a way that highlights it, ohhhh you can’t say that? Demeaning is saying ‘women suck at golf.’ That’s inappropriate. Had Tiger said ‘ maybe you should play from the women’s tees?’ I’m sure he’d get the same backlash. But do women play from shorter tees than the men? Soooo, what’s the problem? 
 

And, you’re forgetting I said his joke was rather tasteless. But the question wasn’t what we thought of Tiger’s prank, it’s what we thought of the media’s response to it.

Edited February 19, 2023 by Vinsk

[iacas]

2 hours ago, Double Mocha Man said:

No, they are not outliers.

Yes, they are. In general, women are not stronger than men. Women don't hit the ball as far as men. Etc.

Those who do are, by definition, outliers. Exceptions.

2 hours ago, Double Mocha Man said:

Erik, where does Natalie stand on this?

She thinks what Tiger did was f***ing hilarious. She knew it would cause a backlash, but she laughed at it and thinks it was funny.

Is that the answer you were expecting?

1 hour ago, Double Mocha Man said:

"I’m guessing most of the millions of fathers and mothers who support their athletic daughters probably have long since retired all their juvenile pranks that were intended to demean the ability of those girls they love and for whom they spend so much time cheering."

Does my daughter support her own self as an athlete if she found what Tiger did funny? Or is her opinion "wrong" to you in some way?

57 minutes ago, Vinsk said:

If women are going to feel offended by cold facts, that’s their issue. They don’t hit it as far. So what?

Yeah, I'm kinda on that track. It's just a fact. Women hit it shorter.

[BlackDiamondPar5]

10 hours ago, Vinsk said:

Of course they are. And don’t tell me they out lifted all the men. Agility/obstacle course? Sure. But what you’re doing is trying to equate their obvious disadvantages and staring they’re as or better than all the men. No they’re not. You have to compare level to level.
A CrossFit bad ass woman beating an overweight man in a hose carrying race doesn’t mean she’s just as capable of ‘men’. Any man who’s equally fit comparatively would easily defeat your super women. Just like Tiger and JT can easily out drive any woman on the LPGA. 

Natalie can probably out drive me. But she’s a young, fit and much better golfer than I am. But an equally gifted male golfer her age and even younger, she would struggle to out drive. I get that his joke was poor taste. But it’s not diminishing woman as it’s just a fact that men hit the ball further than women. That’s not even up for debate. 
 

Why do LPGA players play shorter courses? Hmmm? Why? That’s what Tiger was joking about. Sorry. It’s just true.

Yup. The 200th ranked in driving distance on the PGAT still hits it farther than the #1 longest on the LPGA. 

[Double Mocha Man]

10 hours ago, iacas said:

Or is her opinion "wrong" to you in some way?

Your daughter's opinion is her opinion. I have no issue with that. What Tiger did is fundamentally sexist, misogynistic and frat house behavior. It's another blemish on his off- course life.  Speaking of daughters, I wonder what Sam thought of it?

[GolfLug]

Should we stop looking at women's lesser physical prowess in demeaning way? Yes. Does Tiger need a bit of calibration? Probably. I doubt if he looks at  his daughter/mother/girlfriend or most women as generally inferior. 

We should all move on sooner than later though. Media will probably carry the indignation torch for all of us for a while until it will annoy even the women. 😊

[BlackDiamondPar5]

2 hours ago, Double Mocha Man said:

Your daughter's opinion is her opinion. I have no issue with that. What Tiger did is fundamentally sexist, misogynistic and frat house behavior. It's another blemish on his off- course life.  Speaking of daughters, I wonder what Sam thought of it?

Misogynistic : feeling, showing, or characterized by hatred of or prejudice against women. 

Handing a man a tampon as a joke for being out driven is hardly that. 

 

While I'm 100% against actual misogyny, the efforts by some getting rankled by this antic and calling it misogyny is akin to the little boy crying wolf. 

 

My wife and daughter thought what Tiger did as quite humorous. But then again they are strong and confident people. 

Edited February 19, 2023 by BlackDiamondPar5

[woodzie264]

3 hours ago, Double Mocha Man said:

Your daughter's opinion is her opinion. I have no issue with that. What Tiger did is fundamentally sexist, misogynistic and frat house behavior. It's another blemish on his off- course life.  Speaking of daughters, I wonder what Sam thought of it?

Why do you care what Sam thinks when you just threw out the same thing to Erik about Natalie and then when you don’t get the answer you wanted, you dismissed it like you didn’t care that it was her opinion?

[saevel25]

These type of jokes never hit home for me. I do not find them offending, but I do not find them funny. 

Heck, I am sure women, when together with other women make tasteless jokes at the expense of men all the time. So, it is just what people do. 

I would not categorize that joke as sexists or misogynistic. I would just put it as tacky. The joke gets like a 2 out of 10.  

[Double Mocha Man]

50 minutes ago, BlackDiamondPar5 said:

Handing a man a tampon as a joke for being out driven is hardly that. 

Maybe Tiger should have handed JT an extremely short condom.  

 

21 minutes ago, woodzie264 said:

Why do you care what Sam thinks when you just threw out the same thing to Erik about Natalie and then when you don’t get the answer you wanted, you dismissed it like you didn’t care that it was her opinion?

Huh?  I was wondering what other women thought of the stunt.  In particular, women close to Tiger, in this case.

 

23 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

Heck, I am sure women, when together with other women make tasteless jokes at the expense of men all the time. So, it is just what people do. 

I'll support Tiger here, sorta.  When he did the tampon trick he thought it was just between him and Mr. Thomas.  But when you're a celebrity your life is under a microscope.  I think Tiger's had enough years to learn this.

[Vinsk]

@Double Mocha Man We all get what you’re saying. It’s the ‘misogynist’ point you’re missing imo. Look at it logically:

What was Tiger insinuating by giving the tampon to JT?

That he hits like a girl.

Do men hit the ball further than women?

yes.

Why is that a negative light cast on women? They do hit the ball less far. Again, so what?

[Darkfrog]

I thought Tiger's prank was funny, in the context of me being someone who appreciates ribald, offensive, locker room humor. Premeditated for sure, which IMO detracts from the wittiness of it, (unless Tiger happened to have one of Sam's or Ericka's tampons in his bag for some reason).

I also thought it was in poor taste, juvenile, and for me falls into the category of sexist/misogynistic, but not because women are shorter hitters than men.

 

[Zeph]

There’s also something about it being a tampon that I didn’t care for. There’s been several stories lately of female athletes sharing how menstruation is problematic for them for different reasons. Some months ago, Wimbledon’s strict rules about all the tennis players having to wear all white was relaxed and women were allowed to wear other colors.

This is an age of #MeToo where I almost daily read about women telling stories of sexual abuse and abhorrent behaviour from people (mostly men) in every part of society. This prank is of course something entirely different, but to me it’s one of many small things that’s demeaning to women.

In a vacuum, it’s not a big deal, but today I can’t avoid seeing it in context of everything else that’s happening in the world.

It is of course a fact that women in general hit it shorter than men. That’s easily explained with physiology. I still don’t like jokes that play on them being the “weaker” sex.

[BlackDiamondPar5]

44 minutes ago, Zeph said:

I still don’t like jokes that play on them being the “weaker” sex.

I guess it's perspective there. While from a pure muscular standpoint and driving distance it's essentially impossible for a woman to keep up. But women the weaker sex? I don't think so. Women are generally far superior to men when it comes to being able to work through pain. Work more effectively when dead tired. Generally better at multi-tasking. Generally more attentive and task focused. Live longer. Graduate from college at a higher rate and generally have higher IQs.

So no I don't think women are the weaker sex. Different? Sure. But not inferior. 

 

[iacas]

8 hours ago, Double Mocha Man said:

What Tiger did is fundamentally sexist, misogynistic and frat house behavior.

Nah to "misogynistic."

5 hours ago, woodzie264 said:

Why do you care what Sam thinks when you just threw out the same thing to Erik about Natalie and then when you don’t get the answer you wanted, you dismissed it like you didn’t care that it was her opinion?

Exactly.

4 hours ago, Double Mocha Man said:

Huh?  I was wondering what other women thought of the stunt.  In particular, women close to Tiger, in this case.

So you get to pick and choose the women whose opinions matter here, and if they don't agree with you… then it's just "her opinion is her opinion" and you'll dismiss it. Okay then.

4 hours ago, Double Mocha Man said:

But when you're a celebrity your life is under a microscope.  I think Tiger's had enough years to learn this.

He didn't exactly flaunt it. He handed it to him pretty discreetly. He didn't even mutter something loudly like JT did.

I have this topic here, too, and my stance on this hasn't changed. I can see these as different things. If a guy on my college team says "I hit that like a pussy" I don't make him watch a Sarah Silverman video  detailing just how silly that is.

At the end of the day… Tiger didn't flaunt this. He didn't go out of his way or make a public display here. A cameraman happened to be at just the right angle to catch a very subtle hand-off that JT clearly found hilarious.