2014 Ryder Cup Discussion Thread

[bossfrog]

- The difference through the whole weekend was the putting.  The US players were missing 4-8 footers to halve or win holes.  The Europeans were making 25-30 footers to do the same.

THIS ^^^^^^^^

Bubba need not apply!  We need guys who can put from 20, not hit the ball 340 yards.

[saevel25]

THIS ^^^^^^^^

Bubba need not apply!  We need guys who can put from 20, not hit the ball 340 yards.

Wont happen. Average putts made from 20-25 feet is 11%. You can load the team with guys who putt very well from that distance. The best is 23%. Still, that is only 10% better from that range. So you have to say, how many more opportunities they will get at that position. You might not even see any significant benefit at all depending on how the approach shots are.

[bossfrog]

Either way, Bubba has taken two major dumps in the last 2 Ryder Cups and I'm tired of seeing him on the team.  He can't handle pressure.

[jamo]

Either way, Bubba has taken two major dumps in the last 2 Ryder Cups and I'm tired of seeing him on the team.  He can't handle pressure.

I'm no Bubba fan, but he did lead the USA in qualification points.

[teeitup22]

Either way, Bubba has taken two major dumps in the last 2 Ryder Cups and I'm tired of seeing him on the team.  He can't handle pressure.

Well, if I'm not mistaken, he played pretty well and was up against a stouch European team one of the matches. His partner this year in the first match did not help at all either. He played pretty well two years ago. I don't think he's a very good ryder cup player, but let's face it most of the guys on the U.S. team have not performed either.

[SAGolfLuvr]

34 pages so far on this topic. Y'all make me proud to be a TST member. We really love and are passionate about golf (amateur, pro, and all The Cups).

[trickyputt]

Hmmm. Qualification points. More bureaucrats counting things. Thats always a pesky problem in sports. Money related usually. I wonder what they qualified for exactly?

[bossfrog]

Question: Has any European Ryder Cup player gotten his American citizenship and then represented the USA later?

[Crim]

Myself and Andrew W.K. are very proud.

[ilikefishes]

Question: Has any European Ryder Cup player gotten his American citizenship and then represented the USA later?

No, and that won't happen.

[AmazingWhacker]

I'm no Bubba fan, but he did lead the USA in qualification points.

Which is why we need the "Captain's Veto".  In today's world of Top 10 finishing, there are going to be guys, like Bubba, who have immense talent .. enough to finish well a lot of the time and make the team on points . .but who can't close the deal under any kind of pressure.

Or maybe they should change the points criteria to put more emphasis on wins.

[jamo]

Which is why we need the "Captain's Veto".  In today's world of Top 10 finishing, there are going to be guys, like Bubba, who have immense talent .. enough to finish well a lot of the time and make the team on points . .but who can't close the deal under any kind of pressure.   Or maybe they should change the points criteria to put more emphasis on wins.

No captain would veto the points leader. Also, Bubba won the Masters earlier this year.

[newtogolf]

What can I say?

Sad. I never wanted Tom to end up being slaughtered like this, I only hope that you, the American golf loving public round on Phil Mickelson? Something tells me you won't though

MarK James was interviewed about it today on R5. He made the point that not a single European player has ver broken rank on Faldo's mismanagemt of 2008, and also assured us that they had every to do so, but that the stories remain within the team. The frirst time that any player has ever publicly commented on that team was in response to Faldo's own observations about Garcia this weekend.That the players backed Garics tells it's story. Let's see how many weavil their way out the woodwork to support peter perfect

Not sure why we should "round" on Phil, he spoke his mind, which is encouraged here in the states.   In this country we critique the POTUS if we don't like the decisions they make, so why would Tom Watson get a pass?

I defended Watson's captains picks because I could see the logic in them but with 20-20 hindsight maybe Horshel or Kirk would have been better choices over Mahan and Simpson, we'll never know.  Watson lost the team when he started dictating decisions without explanation.  These guys are the top golfers in the world, multi-millionaires and business men you don't treat them like kids.  You also don't hurt the teams chances to win in order to punish players for questioning your decision making.

Watson acted like a belligerent old man most of the weekend and deserved to be called out for it.

[skydog]

Very, very sad

Got to go to Gleneagles tomorrow and here I am writing a piece about exactly what I didn't want to write. You ask round Scotland for bad stories about Tom. You won't find them. Hell I know that encause I've been trying for ages. I won't comment on Phil (but its mixed)

If we had to lose (and I think we probably need to) then I wanted to do so to Tom Watson

It was obvious from about June onwards however that he was losing the plot and control of the debate

I do remember raising concerns on this board about it, citing a few incidents, (I had a lot more lined up) but didn't really feel able to lay into Tom. You have to realise that for those of us of certain age Tom was our introduction to golf, and in that respect we thank him and America, and certainly more so than someone who couldn't be bothered to turn up at Gleneagles in early July, nor eve name check the Ryder Cup whe he'd qualified for it unti such time that Tiger pulled out

of

I also said in my original posting on the subject that I didn't want to see Tom Watson humiliated, sadly that's what we've seen. It hurts. But I guess it was coming

Tom made mistakes and they were apparent from about June. I'm surprised they weren't seized on earlier. I drew some them out but held most of my observations back as I couldn't honestly be bothered after that, for the mild abuse that followed. He continued to make them in the lead up. I'm not sure a 2 hour silly TV programme helped when the sensible solution was to defer.

What can I say?

Sad. I never wanted Tom to end up being slaughtered like this, I only hope that you, the American golf loving public round on Phil Mickelson? Something tells me you won't though

MarK James was interviewed about it today on R5. He made the point that not a single European player has ver broken rank on Faldo's mismanagemt of 2008, and also assured us that they had every to do so, but that the stories remain within the team. The frirst time that any player has ever publicly commented on that team was in response to Faldo's own observations about Garcia this weekend.That the players backed Garics tells it's story. Let's see how many weavil their way out the woodwork to support peter perfect

A few issues I take here...

So you acknowledge that Tom did a lousy job but think we should still throw Phil in the fire for speaking his mind and trying to provide some constructive criticism?? And your insinuation ('asking around Scotland') that Tom is a sinless, golf demi-god and Phil is part scum bag is a bit much for me to take. You're delusional if you think there are no negative past stories floating around about Tom, because like most anyone, if you ask around enough, you'll find them. I respect Tom (a little less after this week though) and think he's a good man, but don't try to put him on some pedestal and act like he's above reproach.

And as for no players breaking rank in 2008...that's one Euro loss in the past 15 years so while I'm sure some of the players were frustrated by some of what Faldo did that week, there wasn't anywhere near the level of pathalogical mismanagement and failure there that drove Phil's comments this week. And again, we don't know what went on behind the scenes- if Tom actually benched Phil and Keegan because of negative things he overheard them saying Friday night about him, then Phil had every right to fire back at Tom and should have done so in a more aggressive way, IMO.

[Valleygolfer]

Honestly the Ryder Cup just doesn't mean that much in the states. I think that most of the guys would rather win a PGA tournament in general. I do think they try to win but the interest is short lived. It seems that the Ryder cup is even interesting to the casual golf fans and non golfers over there. I personally am interested in it because I love golf in general. I rooted for the US team but like most of the Euro players too. After it was over I was like eh, time to go play golf.

Until the Ryder Cup has some real esteem in the States, it will just be another event and a "exhibition" of European camaraderie.

[FarawayFairways]

That's fine you carry on disrupting your team, you'll carry on losing. Not all results will go your way, but if you maintain a team discipline you can bounce back better from them. If you allow it to descend into the anarchy with everyone pitching in, you'll rip things apart. The best sports teams are always the most disciplined and organised

The warning signs were there months ago. I seem to recall the lead up (when McGinley was building his team) America was focused on whether or not one player was fit. You see this sort of thing in football every week year after year, and you know that teams that start to form like this invariably lose

I'd be very critical of Mickelson's commitment to be honest. If he wanted to set an example he had the opportunity to send out a message back in July which he didn't take up when he played Aberdeen and then skipped the badly attended team build/ scouting mission at Gleneagles. I felt then that this snub undermined the captain and took it as a positive that America was continuing to play as individuals. The before Valhalla (with Tiger seemingly still involved as Tom had moved the goalposts yet again to accommodate him) Mickelson gave some interview where he suggested he might not take a wildcard pick. This is your country calling Phil. If it calls, you go. I could understand it if your confidence was shot to pieces like Sandy Lyle in 1989 and you felt you'd be a liability, but this was some kind of self-indulgence he seemed to be on. It struck me that he was looking for an excuse to get out. A senior player signalling that he doesn't fancy playing has to be damaging. The other answers he gave in that interview were all about him, and he framed it all through the prism about his personal achoevement of playing so many consecutive cups. He never mentioned the team. When he did qualify he was asked what the future held golf wise. The cup was 6 weeks away and yet he never mentioned it. Instead all he could do was talk about how he wants to play in the Olympics and win a gold medal. I got the impression Phil only became intereste din the 2014 the day Woods was injured. His profile and focus only increased at this point. I was surprised at one level, (but not at another) that he was made leader. He would be pretty low down my list

One thing that will come under the spotlight now is how America selects its wildcards. Tom gave the impression that Webb Simpson was a decision on the morning based on a guess (he called it a revelation). He invoked his cup record from Medinah. It was insight that had been there on wikipedia for two years. Look at what he actually said again and it sounds like a someone handing a school project in who had to take a wild stab at an answer to complete it. I do wonder what might have happened had he gone to Ted Bishop 5 days earlier and said, "I can't decide I want to see the Fed Ex play out?". Did the fact that the USPGA had set up a 2 hour television spectacle, presumably with support advertising, drive the timing?

I think the explanation that they have to announce the team in early September to allow families to make arrangements is pretty limp too. Do you want to win, or do you want the WAGS to look their best? There are tens of thousands of people who work away from home in some quite hostile environements.  Similarly, there are also people whose jobs involve being called away at short notice. They adjust, and they aren't multi millionaires in a lot of cases. If America had done this, they'd have had Kirk and Horschel on the team, as Watson's text conceded (heaven knows how Simpson was supposed to feel about that). I know some of you thought it humourous, but in the terms of managing a sports team, it's clumsy.

I do wonder what might happen actually if you scrapped the qualification process completely and had national selectors and picked a team? I don't think the order of merit would be damaged as it's only an expression of prize money. It would still form the basis of the selections you feel, but it might allow you to drop a few flakey match players

On the positive side, I do think there's a generation starting to emerge who might 'get it' and it's these you need to be turning to surely?

[misty_mountainhop]

Not sure why we should "round" on Phil, he spoke his mind, which is encouraged here in the states.   In this country we critique the POTUS if we don't like the decisions they make, so why would Tom Watson get a pass?

I defended Watson's captains picks because I could see the logic in them but with 20-20 hindsight maybe Horshel or Kirk would have been better choices over Mahan and Simpson, we'll never know.  Watson lost the team when he started dictating decisions without explanation.  These guys are the top golfers in the world, multi-millionaires and business men you don't treat them like kids.  You also don't hurt the teams chances to win in order to punish players for questioning your decision making.

Watson acted like a belligerent old man most of the weekend and deserved to be called out for it.

The only thing that allows Mickleson to think he can get away with this is that it's a one shot deal for Watson etc. If he was firing off like that, in public, at his coach when he was a member of any normal sporting setup then he's being benched and/or sold.

I don't think it can be remotely right for Mickleson to 'call out' Watson in front of the media circus the way he did. It only shows him for the fool he obviously is. What do you want to happen? For Watson to take public umbrage and tear a strip off in return? Tit-for-tat? It's what Mickleson deserved but, fortunately, he didn't get it. It's childish and pathetic but if that's the way people expect the U.S. Ryder Cup scene to be run, we'll happily pick up the trophy every couple of years.

A few issues I take here...

So you acknowledge that Tom did a lousy job but think we should still throw Phil in the fire for speaking his mind and trying to provide some constructive criticism?? And your insinuation ('asking around Scotland') that Tom is a sinless, golf demi-god and Phil is part scum bag is a bit much for me to take. You're delusional if you think there are no negative past stories floating around about Tom, because like most anyone, if you ask around enough, you'll find them. I respect Tom (a little less after this week though) and think he's a good man, but don't try to put him on some pedestal and act like he's above reproach.

And as for no players breaking rank in 2008...that's one Euro loss in the past 15 years so while I'm sure some of the players were frustrated by some of what Faldo did that week, there wasn't anywhere near the level of pathalogical mismanagement and failure there that drove Phil's comments this week. And again, we don't know what went on behind the scenes- if Tom actually benched Phil and Keegan because of negative things he overheard them saying Friday night about him, then Phil had every right to fire back at Tom and should have done so in a more aggressive way, IMO.

Seriously?? You think it would have been right of Mickleson to have been even more publicly demeaning that he was? I have no idea what you're referring to re. Mickleson and Bradley on Friday night but I would have been seriously pissed off if I were Watson and what you're suggesting is correct in that they were, in some way, trash talking their Captain during the actual event itself. Could that actually be any more seditious?

Ignoring Watson this time, what're the excuses for the other 7 losses from 9 recently?? The evidence is there isn't it? There's something seriously amiss with the U.S. over recent years at the Ryder Cup. It's not Watson's fault, just as much as it's not the fault of the other Captains of the last 10 events (Azinger excepted). What's the common denominator? The players. There's nothing wrong with their actual golfing skills, that's obvious (assuming you believe the OWGR rankings are remotely accurate). Do they really give a damn? Is all that they're interested in, really, themselves?

I hope a solution is found as I think the Ryder Cup matches are epic sport but they do deserve to be competitive. I hate it when Europe lose and we have to put up with "USA! USA! USA!" etc. but that just makes it sweeter when we get it back again. Good luck sorting it out!

[saevel25]

Ignoring Watson this time, what're the excuses for the other 7 losses from 9 recently?? The evidence is there isn't it? There's something seriously amiss with the U.S. over recent years at the Ryder Cup. It's not Watson's fault, just as much as it's not the fault of the other Captains of the last 10 events (Azinger excepted). What's the common denominator? The players. There's nothing wrong with their actual golfing skills, that's obvious (assuming you believe the OWGR rankings are remotely accurate). Do they really give a damn? Is all that they're interested in, really, themselves?

I hope a solution is found as I think the Ryder Cup matches are epic sport but they do deserve to be competitive. I hate it when Europe lose and we have to put up with "USA! USA! USA!" etc. but that just makes it sweeter when we get it back again. Good luck sorting it out!

When it comes down to it, the players have to play their best. To me the US golfers are just not up to the standard. I can understand that as well. In terms of number of golfers European team has a deeper field to choose from. It's the same reason why the largest countries dominate the Olympics, they have more athletes. European countries combined have about double the population of the USA. Given they still choose the top players to compete, it is a bit closer than double in terms of depth, but in the end there is a slight edge. The European teams might have 1-3 more overall better players than the US team, depending on the year. It is pretty clear, that ever since they opened the Ryder Cup up to all other European countries that it has gotten much more competitive and more towards the European's favor.

I also think the Europeans get motivated more for this event. The energy is so much different. I am not sure if it is a culture thing. Maybe US golfers are just more in tune with normal golf tournament play. Get to the course, be stoic and do your job. It always seems that European players are more inclined to be more out going and competitive in that nature.