"Correct" pace of play

[mvmac]

If it takes you over 4 hours to play a round of golf and you aren't waiting on most shots, then you or your playing partners need to learn how to play ready golf and take an AimPoint Express class

[Hardballs]

A full lunch at the turn is quite acceptable so long as it's between the morning 18 tee time and the afternoon 18 tee time!  But not otherwise!  Just have to make sure slow play in the morning doesn't make you late for the afternoon tee time.

A full lunch after 9, & then play the other 9? That's hilarious! I must put that on the non golfer thread.

[CartShedCop]

A few years back, back when I was married to my second wife (cough cough), I used to play two or three times a week with her father and his 11 o'clock senior's group. My father-in-law was the youngest of the group (myself excluded, obviously) and he was in his early 60s. The other gentlemen spanned the upper 60s to darn near 80. It was not uncommon for us to play as five or six 5-somes. That's right, 5-somes... seniors, some walking, some riding, some even had the handicap flags. I don't remember a single time that the last group was not in, checking bets and dealing cards in under 4.5 hours. They all played ready golf, even on the greens if need be, and picked up at double. To their credit, there were very few doubles between them. This group played Monday through Friday, year round - weather permitting of course. Why not on the weekends? The course was too slow... with "young" people sweating out 20 foot bogey putts, trying to find "the groove" in the their 10th practice swing, and being hellbent on looking for that ball that was last seen entering the woods 50 yards in.

Fast forward to my present golf situation/group: My regular golfing buddy and I can ride or walk, and if we even near 3 hours as a two-some, something bad has happened. It is nothing for us, during the summer, to get three full rounds in - sometimes adding 1 or 2 players, sometimes just as a two-some. On the weekends? Our courses get antsy at anything over 4 hours. You can feel the swell of discomfort around the joint. What do we do? Call a ranger and insist that he be a ranger.

A few weeks back at the course I work, I booted a four-some off the course. Got word in the shop of the culprits through phone calls and complaints at the turn. Heard that 5s and 6-somes were forming just to ease the waiting game. I headed out, saw the dreaded group... they were blasting two balls a piece tee to green (they were horrible) and there were THREE open holes in front. I gave them a warning and drove around a bit. Came back 15 minutes later and they were now FOUR holes out of synch. Guys, guys, listen... listen... you must leave now. Pick your balls up (all 10 of them) and please leave the course. They barked a bit and gave me the "we paid good money..." line and that they demand a rain-check. I scoffed back that EVERYONE else had paid good money and that because they made the turn and that we in no way ever wanted to see such play and lack of respect out there again, they would not be getting anything from the course that would encourage their return, rain-check or otherwise.

It's group effort, but all to often I feel that employees of the course - from the Pro Shop to the ranger(s) fall short in their duty of enforcing ready golf and stopping slow play. The money argument rings hollow to me: If you are worried about approaching the slow groups for fear of not getting their return money, you run a high risk of not getting the monies from the many groups behind them in return.

[Hardballs]

A few years back, back when I was married to my second wife (cough cough), I used to play two or three times a week with her father and his 11 o'clock senior's group. My father-in-law was the youngest of the group (myself excluded, obviously) and he was in his early 60s. The other gentlemen spanned the upper 60s to darn near 80. It was not uncommon for us to play as five or six 5-somes. That's right, 5-somes... seniors, some walking, some riding, some even had the handicap flags. I don't remember a single time that the last group was not in, checking bets and dealing cards in under 4.5 hours. They all played ready golf, even on the greens if need be, and picked up at double. To their credit, there were very few doubles between them. This group played Monday through Friday, year round - weather permitting of course. Why not on the weekends? The course was too slow... with "young" people sweating out 20 foot bogey putts, trying to find "the groove" in the their 10th practice swing, and being hellbent on looking for that ball that was last seen entering the woods 50 yards in. Fast forward to my present golf situation/group: My regular golfing buddy and I can ride or walk, and if we even near 3 hours as a two-some, something bad has happened. It is nothing for us, during the summer, to get three full rounds in - sometimes adding 1 or 2 players, sometimes just as a two-some. On the weekends? Our courses get antsy at anything over 4 hours. You can feel the swell of discomfort around the joint. What do we do? Call a ranger and insist that he be a ranger. A few weeks back at the course I work, I booted a four-some off the course. Got word in the shop of the culprits through phone calls and complaints at the turn. Heard that 5s and 6-somes were forming just to ease the waiting game. I headed out, saw the dreaded group... they were blasting two balls a piece tee to green (they were horrible) and there were THREE open holes in front. I gave them a warning and drove around a bit. Came back 15 minutes later and they were now FOUR holes out of synch. Guys, guys, listen... listen... you must leave now. Pick your balls up (all 10 of them) and please leave the course. They barked a bit and gave me the "we paid good money..." line and that they demand a rain-check. I scoffed back that EVERYONE else had paid good money and that because they made the turn and that we in no way ever wanted to see such play and lack of respect out there again, they would not be getting anything from the course that would encourage their return, rain-check or otherwise. It's group effort, but all to often I feel that employees of the course - from the Pro Shop to the ranger(s) fall short in their duty of enforcing ready golf and stopping slow play. The money argument rings hollow to me: If you are worried about approaching the slow groups for fear of not getting their return money, you run a high risk of not getting the monies from the many groups behind them in return.

I feel you dealt with this perfectly! You should run a course for marshals on how to do their job properly! It boils down to some players, mainly newbies, being ignorant of etiquette, they NEED to be educated! And the only way to do it is to call them out! If they're being ridiculous and ruining it for everyone, then they gotta leave, give them some free time on the range and politely explain that this course, although welcomes new players, isn't for the slow and useless! When I first started playing regularly, I'd sometimes go out with my brother and his friends, who were quite good and quick, so I was fortunate enough to learn ready golf, with etiquette, right from the start, if getting asked to leave a course is the only way of educating then so be it! Communication is the key though, staff at reception need to speak to people before they play, "do you have a handicap" are you a member anywhere" do you have a pitch mark repair tool, are you aware of our slow play policy? If any of these come back as "no" then alarm bells should ring that these groups need monitoring!

[David in FL]

I don't believe a single person who says a 4.5 hour foursome round is slow plays golf. Y'all need to get off the website and golf every now and then.

124 rounds last year, and on track to beat that this year.

4 is rushed unless it is a bunch of scratch golfers who go fairway/green a high percentage of the time and you really know the course. 5 is when the round starts to be unbearable. It is dependent on the course though. Short and wide open courses should play slightly faster obviously.

The majority of those 120+ rounds are played on the weekends......prime time, around 9ish.  We tend to play around 6,600 yards and have a wide variety of skill levels in our group.  The majority are in the 12-17 hcp range, and a couple in the 26ish range and 4 are single-digit.  3:50 - 4:10 is the norm.  Over 4:15 is a death slog.  I can't remember the last time I've played a 5 hour round of golf, unless there was a weather delay of some sort.

My group is always pushing the group in front of us and one is a very short hitter but to think four 18 handicaps should keep up with four low single digit handicaps is absurd

Not at all.  Speed has very little to do with how many times you his the ball.  It has everything to do with how you manage your time during the round, and some better golfers are among the worst at managing their pace of play!

In answer to the OP and the poll.......as @Fourputt is fond of saying, "your proper position on the course is directly behind the group in front of you, not directly in front of the group behind you."

If there's no one on the course in front of you, any 4-ball should be able to easily maintain a sub 4-hour pace, and even in doing so, should allow faster groups through.  There's nothing more frustrating to get stuck behind a group of knuckleheads with an open course ahead of them that won't let you through because in their mind they're playing at an acceptable pace.

[Slice of Life]

I don't believe a single person who says a 4.5 hour foursome round is slow plays golf. Y'all need to get off the website and golf every now and then. 4.5 is an acceptable weekend foursome round where you might wait every now and the. If your group has a low scoring hole. 4 is rushed unless it is a bunch of scratch golfers who go fairway/green a high percentage of the time and you really know the course. 5 is when the round starts to be unbearable. It is dependent on the course though. Short and wide open courses should play slightly faster obviously.

And to the OP the course isn't stating that "they have the right it be out there for at least 4.5 hours" as you stated. The course is saying as long as they finish in 4.5 hours they deem it acceptable regardless of what other groups in front of them are doing.

My group is always pushing the group in front of us and one is a very short hitter but to think four 18 handicaps should keep up with four low single digit handicaps is absurd and maybe y'all need to join a private course.

Sorry, but you're wrong. If you think a 4.5 hour round isn't slow, it's because your group is slow. A couple 15 minute holes...sure, maybe. averaging 15 minutes a hole? You're slow.

[3putter]

I don't believe a single person who says a 4.5 hour foursome round is slow plays golf. Y'all need to get off the website and golf every now and then. 4.5 is an acceptable weekend foursome round where you might wait every now and the. If your group has a low scoring hole. 4 is rushed unless it is a bunch of scratch golfers who go fairway/green a high percentage of the time and you really know the course. 5 is when the round starts to be unbearable. It is dependent on the course though. Short and wide open courses should play slightly faster obviously.

Dear God, please say it ain't so. I've played in 4-some that took under 3.5 hours on weekends, and the lowest handicap we had was an 8

A few years back, back when I was married to my second wife (cough cough), I used to play two or three times a week with her father and his 11 o'clock senior's group. My father-in-law was the youngest of the group (myself excluded, obviously) and he was in his early 60s. The other gentlemen spanned the upper 60s to darn near 80. It was not uncommon for us to play as five or six 5-somes. That's right, 5-somes... seniors, some walking, some riding, some even had the handicap flags. I don't remember a single time that the last group was not in, checking bets and dealing cards in under 4.5 hours. They all played ready golf, even on the greens if need be, and picked up at double. To their credit, there were very few doubles between them. This group played Monday through Friday, year round - weather permitting of course. Why not on the weekends? The course was too slow... with "young" people sweating out 20 foot bogey putts, trying to find "the groove" in the their 10th practice swing, and being hellbent on looking for that ball that was last seen entering the woods 50 yards in.

Fast forward to my present golf situation/group: My regular golfing buddy and I can ride or walk, and if we even near 3 hours as a two-some, something bad has happened. It is nothing for us, during the summer, to get three full rounds in - sometimes adding 1 or 2 players, sometimes just as a two-some. On the weekends? Our courses get antsy at anything over 4 hours. You can feel the swell of discomfort around the joint. What do we do? Call a ranger and insist that he be a ranger.

A few weeks back at the course I work, I booted a four-some off the course. Got word in the shop of the culprits through phone calls and complaints at the turn. Heard that 5s and 6-somes were forming just to ease the waiting game. I headed out, saw the dreaded group... they were blasting two balls a piece tee to green (they were horrible) and there were THREE open holes in front. I gave them a warning and drove around a bit. Came back 15 minutes later and they were now FOUR holes out of synch. Guys, guys, listen... listen... you must leave now. Pick your balls up (all 10 of them) and please leave the course. They barked a bit and gave me the "we paid good money..." line and that they demand a rain-check. I scoffed back that EVERYONE else had paid good money and that because they made the turn and that we in no way ever wanted to see such play and lack of respect out there again, they would not be getting anything from the course that would encourage their return, rain-check or otherwise.

It's group effort, but all to often I feel that employees of the course - from the Pro Shop to the ranger(s) fall short in their duty of enforcing ready golf and stopping slow play. The money argument rings hollow to me: If you are worried about approaching the slow groups for fear of not getting their return money, you run a high risk of not getting the monies from the many groups behind them in return.

I wanna give you a high five, and a medal. I'm young, but I seldom play with people my age. The ones I play with know the deal, and they have the skills to keep up. "Let's keep it under 4, fellas!"

[MrDC]

I walk 18 usually, and that takes about 4 hours for a twosome, maybe a bit more if there are waits.

If I ride it's less for sure.

For those that are critical it should be noted that some walk and are inherently a bit slower, and a few walking groups can slow down an entire field, it's part of the game.

I think people feeling rushed is equally as bad for the game as those that have to wait all the time, pace of play need to be perfected by the course and the starter has to be on their game as much as players.

[David in FL]

I walk 18 usually, and that takes about 4 hours for a twosome, maybe a bit more if there are waits.

If I ride it's less for sure.

For those that are critical it should be noted that some walk and are inherently a bit slower, and a few walking groups can slow down an entire field, it's part of the game.

You're gonna have a tough sell there.  I ride virtually 100%, but know plenty of walkers that play quickly.  They might struggle to get around in 2:30, but they can easily keep it under 3:30 without breaking a sweat and generally can keep up with riding partners.....

The common denominator is always the same.  A bit of a sense of urgency and a willingness to just keep moving .....towards your ball.

[Slice of Life]

I walk 18 usually, and that takes about 4 hours for a twosome, maybe a bit more if there are waits.

If I ride it's less for sure.

For those that are critical it should be noted that some walk and are inherently a bit slower, and a few walking groups can slow down an entire field, it's part of the game.

I think people feeling rushed is equally as bad for the game as those that have to wait all the time, pace of play need to be perfected by the course and the starter has to be on their game as much as players.

Sorry, walked as a threesome on Thursday. Teed off at about 3:45, and we were done around 7:05. And we got held up on the back nine and had to wait...a lot. And we all shot in the 90s.

Walking isn't an excuse for being slow, and playing poorly isn't an excuse for being slow.

[mcanadiens]

I walk a lot of the courses I play and, generally, there isn't much difference. The time I spend playing is usually dictated by the other groups on the course. If the course is wide open, Riding is probably worth 20-30 minutes depending on the course.

[whatwoodtigerdo]

Okay, okay, okay, I change my stance. I guess I have endured some really slow rounds so now I think of them as really slow or not as slow. Now that I am more sober and think about it we teed off at 820 yesterday and because it was 41 degrees there was nobody out there in front of us and we finished right around noon so 3 hour and 30 or 40 minutes and it didn't feel rushed. Now it is a decently open course we know very well so I still say if a course is tighter, heavier rough and you don't know it well it will slow you down. Thinking about it the first hole there is a par 5 and when we were on our 3rd shots 3 twosomes drove up to the box and I was thinking "that's great we are going to be letting people play through all day" but the twosome directly behind us never caught us lol, and they actually let the twosome behind them play through and it took them until the turn to go through us and they only waited once while 2 guys finished putting out. I kept thinking what the heck are those groups doing. I now vote to throw them all off the course.

[Patch]

I walk 18 usually, and that takes about 4 hours for a twosome, maybe a bit more if there are waits.

If I ride it's less for sure.

For those that are critical it should be noted that some walk and are inherently a bit slower, and a few walking groups can slow down an entire field, it's part of the game.

I think people feeling rushed is equally as bad for the game as those that have to wait all the time, pace of play need to be perfected by the course and the starter has to be on their game as much as players.

You get my vote on your post, although I walk a lot too and can usually be done in under four hours with no waits in my way. Plus, that's taking my time during the round. Pace of play will always be what it is on the day you play. Some days will allow for faster play, while others will allow for slower play.

[Fourputt]

What exactly does correct pace of play mean? Does it mean play at a pace of 4 1/2 hours or less? Or is it what I believe to maintain your position behind the group ahead? I marshal part time and just recently had to tell a group of 4 that they are falling behind and that they either can speed up play or allow the group behind them that just told me they had been waiting some during the round to play through. One of the players in the group claimed that since they were playing at a 4 1/2 hour pace and even though there was 2 open holes in front that they didn't have to speed up or let the group behind through. I was about to tell him how wrong he was but the other marshal on shift quipped in that he's right and I should leave them alone, I decided to let it go since my shift was just ending but unless I have been told wrong info for quite some time I just don't agree with that way of thinking whatsoever, I feel as though the course is letting people feel as if they have a right to be out there for at least 4 1/2 hours and if it runs over too bad and too bad for those who want to play in less time, if the course allows that much time it's inevitable the pace will reach 5+ hours and it does there sometimes even 6. I plan on sending an e mail to the head marshal if I'm correct but if not then fine also but more important than anything else I think clarification needs to happen.

Unfortunately, "correct" pace of play is whatever the course says it should be.  That doesn't mean that a player shouldn't do everything he can to do better than that.  Posted policy is usually the maximum time expected, not the optimal time to play.  Courses too often err exactly as your scenario instead of encouraging players to play at the best pace possible.

As far as the poll is concerned, The only answer possible from those 2 is the second one (although that isn't an absolute either, as in the case of a fourball following a single or a twosome, or when there is a gap in the used tee times).  The poll doesn't address the issue when you are leading the pack with nobody in front of you.  This doesn't only apply to the first group in the morning, but to any group with a number of open tee times ahead of them.  They need to be at least as aware of their pace as any group in the middle of the pack, because they set the tone the entire course behind them.

This is not so much a case of adhering to a certain pace to play, but of learning how playing the game impacts pace and then doing everything in your power to minimize the effective time it takes you to play each shot.  That means doing all of the preliminary things (finding distances, selecting a club, planning the shot) as much as is possible before it's your turn, so that when your turn comes, all you have left to do is hit the ball.  And "your turn" doesn't mean farthest from the hole - it means that when you are ready and not interfering with anyone else, you are up.  Learn good pace of play habits and use them, and at least you will never be part of the problem.

All that said, if a course isn't going to take a proactive direction to improve pace of play, then there is very little that one player, or even one group can do, no matter how well informed they are.  When course management encourages a less than optimal pace, then it will have a real problem keeping players under the maximum allowed pace.

[ghalfaire]

Well, this subject comes  up a lot and is contentious as one can tell from reading the posts.   But worth discussion as 5 hour rounds are not fun regardless of your score.  But I believe the "standard" of 4 hours +/- a few minutes is pretty much accepted by most courses.  Having said that one certainly can do a round in less if everyone on the course is playing golf.  But for many it seems the round is a social or business occasion and golf isn't the primary interest.  So on days when play is slow and it isn't the foursome in front of you I suggest you smell the roses and enjoy the day because your scores will be better and you'll return home with a better attitude.  Just be thankful you have the time, money, and physical fitness to play the game.

[Big C]

Pace of play is dictated by so many different factors, that I don't believe there is a universally "correct" time. If I were playing one of the muni's around my home with little to no rough and very few hazards and tee boxes located within 25 yards of the previous green, I would expect a foursome could easily finish in 3:30-3:45 without rushing.

On the other side of the coin, I just played the Stadium course at PGA West  a few weeks ago. Talk about tough! There were hazards everywhere, bunkers taller than I was, and rough so penal that we lost several balls that "should" have been in plain sight. Lost balls were fairly common and although we mitigated at best we could (dropping with a 2 stroke penalty in lieu of taking S&D;, playing ready golf throughout), it was a punitive exhausting course where we struggled to keep pace on the first several holes. Ultimately, we finished comfortably under the 4:30 pace time, but it was no cakewalk

[MS256]

Pace of play is dictated by so many different factors, that I don't believe there is a universally "correct" time. If I were playing one of the muni's around my home with little to no rough and very few hazards and tee boxes located within 25 yards of the previous green, I would expect a foursome could easily finish in 3:30-3:45 without rushing.

On the other side of the coin, I just played the Stadium course at PGA West  a few weeks ago. Talk about tough! There were hazards everywhere, bunkers taller than I was, and rough so penal that we lost several balls that "should" have been in plain sight. Lost balls were fairly common and although we mitigated at best we could (dropping with a 2 stroke penalty in lieu of taking S&D;, playing ready golf throughout), it was a punitive exhausting course where we struggled to keep pace on the first several holes. Ultimately, we finished comfortably under the 4:30 pace time, but it was no cakewalk

Most people play those "tough courses" from longer tees than they should. (I'm definitely as guilty as anybody).

We think we are long enough, and maybe we are, but we aren't straight enough. And we don't have the advantage of spotters and a gallery to help spot our golf balls.

For the first time ever I have actually used some common sense about that this year and have had much more comfortable rounds.

[Golfingdad]

Well, this subject comes  up a lot and is contentious as one can tell from reading the posts.   But worth discussion as 5 hour rounds are not fun regardless of your score.  But I believe the "standard" of 4 hours +/- a few minutes is pretty much accepted by most courses.  Having said that one certainly can do a round in less if everyone on the course is playing golf.  But for many it seems the round is a social or business occasion and golf isn't the primary interest.  So on days when play is slow and it isn't the foursome in front of you I suggest you smell the roses and enjoy the day because your scores will be better and you'll return home with a better attitude.  Just be thankful you have the time, money, and physical fitness to play the game.

I think it's only contentious because there are people here who assume that we all play under the same parameters.  People who play at the same course all the time and know every tee shot before they get there, and have greens and tees that are close to each other should get around in under 4 hours.  And quite easily, walking or riding.  On the other hand, a foursome of guys playing a course they've never (or rarely) played before, with drives between greens and tees, and several other golfer out on the course, and a cart girl who comes through and stops each group for a minute to sell stuff, well, that's going to take longer.

I only judge the speed of my rounds by where I am in relation to the group in front of me.  And, lately, around here, 4:15 is pretty common and pleasant.

Another reason for the possible tension on these threads is that we also like to get a little hyperbolic at times ...

3:50 - 4:10 is the norm.  Over 4:15 is a death slog.

Seriously??  The difference between "norm" and "death slog" is FIVE minutes???  Come on, man.