Article Says Real Reason for Slow Play is Short Tee Time Intervals

[Golfingdad]

Par threes are all bottlenecks, because nobody can lay up from trouble with no fear of getting near the green. Everyone waits for tee shots (ready golf is tough to pull off on a tee box unlike a much larger fairway), drives all together, and then has to hit all of the short game shots as well.

Architect Dan Maples told me he REALLY tries to hold off on the course's first par three to the fourth hole at the earliest, the fifth if he can manage it, for this reason.

Maybe ask Dan about this outside-the-box idea:

Try and put the first par 3 of the course as the ... FIRST hole.  Then either go two ways with it:

Set tee times far enough apart that each group finishes the hole before the next group tees off, or you force each group to wave up the next group (if it's a long or particularly difficult par 3).

In both cases, the speed of the group or the waving up would be easily enforcable because the starter is right there.  (Its easy for people to ignore a sign on the 7th hole that asks you to wave up the next group, but not so easy to ignore the starter whom you know is watching your every move from 175 yards away)

A couple of extra plusses of this idea would be that it would probably lessen the first tee jitters for a lot of people - hitting an 8-iron is a little less stressful than a driver, especially if one's not warmed up - AND it would be even easier for them to push back the next par three a few holes since you just had one.

Would that work??

[iacas]

Would that work??

Perhaps, but who wants to start their round with a par three?

[HanNL]

This thread made me go from lurker to contributor :). I'll write something in the introduction subforum in a minute.

A while back I made an Excel sheet to be able to calculate the duration of a round and what it depends on. Based on that model I noticed that the duration of a par 3 is of the most influence on the duration of the entire round. If the tee times are spaced closer together than the duration of the longest par 3 on the course, the course will be backed up.

Of course, this is based on my model, which only (as of yet) uses three hole times: one for a par 3, one for a par 4, and one for a par 5. I did incorporate delays during a hole (e.g. looking for a ball for a certain time), which of course also influences duration of a round.

For anyone who is interested in the file: download from WeTransfer. http://we.tl/hvtsX6kiyL. Please note that everything is in Dutch at the moment. Translation on request :).

[dkolo]

Perhaps, but who wants to start their round with a par three?

I'd love it, but that's because my driving is no good.

[DrvFrShow]

Starting a round with a par 3? Ridiculous. Hey everyone knows we're a little tight on the first hole, and most people push their tee shots right. Even the pros do it. Solution: hammer your shot, but play the push. That suggestion from Johnny Miller.

Speaking of par 3s.... The first hole on my home course is fine. The second hole is a long par 3. The green, not large, is guarded by two bunkers in the front. You have to clear the bunkers. Most people end up in the right bunker. Three ways of playing are to 1) hope you hit a good shot and land on the green; 2) play a little short of the green and chip up; or 3) play it long and avoid the trouble hoping you caught the ball checked up on the back side of the green otherwise you're chipping up out of very soft ground, and you're taking a drop out of a 3" deep tire track from a lawnmower. There is usually a backup of people waiting to tee off on the 2nd hole. The right front bunker has a steep lip. They could speed play on that hole by removing that bunker. Leave the left one there - that's my favorite one.

Hole 8 - another par 3. The senior and women's tees are fine 163 yds. The men's tees are also 163 yds. However it's the approach. The women hit to an elevated green about 25 feet with a bunker on the left. The green is sloped toward hard toward the tee. You don't want to be long on this hole and have a downhill putt, trust me. The men have to hit over a water hazard and over that bunker to land on the green. Most men who play the course can't wait to turn 60. They either end up in the bunker or blow the shot completely over the green, or land to the right, off where  women and seniors leave their shots short. It's a bogey hole. The hole plays faster for seniors and women. It's slow for the men, since some will dunk a ball. Solution: move the men's tee box to the same place as the women's and seniors. It's a difficult hole in either case.

[rkim291968]

This thread made me go from lurker to contributor :). I'll write something in the introduction subforum in a minute.

A while back I made an Excel sheet to be able to calculate the duration of a round and what it depends on. Based on that model I noticed that the duration of a par 3 is of the most influence on the duration of the entire round. If the tee times are spaced closer together than the duration of the longest par 3 on the course, the course will be backed up.

It makes perfect sense to me.    It's the difficult par 3s and short par 4 which long players wait for green to clear for their t-shot are the worst offenders in my experience.

[Golfingdad]

Perhaps, but who wants to start their round with a par three?

I agree that it's odd, but then so is ending your round on a par 3, but thats the case of a few good courses. Just off the top of my head, East Lake and Pasatiempo ... And Congressional before a few years ago. Like I said, just an idea.

[18rounds]

I'd love it, but that's because my driving is no good.

Same here. I am guessing the high handicapper and weekend hackers would be just fine with a par 3 to open. I don't know if it holds up to math but I feel like par 3's are my best chance to make par because there are fewer chances (less swings) for an erratic shot.

Starting with a 3 would give me a little more time to loosen up before I get my nemesis, the driver, out of the bag.

[NJpatbee]

I think most golfers would be willing to pay and additional 15% to have a 3 1/2 - 4 hours round instead of 5+ hours - I know I would (and do).  My regular course has 10 minute intervals and it does seem to help.  They charge a few dollars more and make their money and rarely do you get backed up.  A round on a busy weekend usually takes about 3 1/2 hours.  Of course this is just one psrt of the solution but it could help reduce gridlock on the course.

[Dave2512]

It may be a contributing factor but IMO not the sole factor. I've been stuck behind slow groups starting on the first hole if they are chasing balls. Doesn't matter what the interval was if the group ahead of them starts to put space between as they pull away. Slow play is caused by not finishing holes in the allotted time.

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by HanNL

This thread made me go from lurker to contributor :). I'll write something in the introduction subforum in a minute.

A while back I made an Excel sheet to be able to calculate the duration of a round and what it depends on. Based on that model I noticed that the duration of a par 3 is of the most influence on the duration of the entire round. If the tee times are spaced closer together than the duration of the longest par 3 on the course, the course will be backed up.

It makes perfect sense to me.    It's the difficult par 3s and short par 4 which long players wait for green to clear for their t-shot are the worst offenders in my experience.

Thankfully, my old home course has no drivable par 4's (and the first par 3 is the 4th hole so players can get into a rhythm before they get there).  The only par 4 that theoretically could be driven (343 yards from the white tees) has a lake at the end of the 220 yard fairway and it takes about a 310 yard carry to clear the lake.  The only players I know who can do that are the ones who play their best shots here on the forum.

The new home course doesn't have any drivable par 4 holes either.  I'm not sure that I've ever played a course with a truly drivable par 4 hole.

[rkim291968]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rkim291968

Quote:

Originally Posted by HanNL

This thread made me go from lurker to contributor :). I'll write something in the introduction subforum in a minute.

A while back I made an Excel sheet to be able to calculate the duration of a round and what it depends on. Based on that model I noticed that the duration of a par 3 is of the most influence on the duration of the entire round. If the tee times are spaced closer together than the duration of the longest par 3 on the course, the course will be backed up.

It makes perfect sense to me.    It's the difficult par 3s and short par 4 which long players wait for green to clear for their t-shot are the worst offenders in my experience.

Thankfully, my old home course has no drivable par 4's (and the first par 3 is the 4th hole so players can get into a rhythm before they get there).  The only par 4 that theoretically could be driven (343 yards from the white tees) has a lake at the end of the 220 yard fairway and it takes about a 310 yard carry to clear the lake.  The only players I know who can do that are the ones who play their best shots here on the forum.

The new home course doesn't have any drivable par 4 holes either.  I'm not sure that I've ever played a course with a truly drivable par 4 hole.

As I recall, this forum is full of players who can "average" 300 yards, plus or minus 20.

[Aflighter]

I had a pretty lengthy chat with a starter once while I was waiting for my turn to tee off. The course was backed up 40 minutes for no apparent reason at all, just sheer volume. He said they used to be fine when they had 10 minute intervals, but a new management company came in and changed a bunch of policies, including shortening tee time intervals to 8 minutes.

He said they refuse to change that policy, no matter how much he fights them about it, which sucks for him because he's the one in the line of fire from angry customers. I guess their management is collecting the money, so they don't care about anything else, which is a shame. I won't go back there again.

That pretty much sums up the problem with a lot of things these days.You have people that own a business having no idea how to run it correctly only looking at the dollar signs but not caring about how they get it.

[rkim291968]

Quote:

Originally Posted by billchao

I had a pretty lengthy chat with a starter once while I was waiting for my turn to tee off. The course was backed up 40 minutes for no apparent reason at all, just sheer volume. He said they used to be fine when they had 10 minute intervals, but a new management company came in and changed a bunch of policies, including shortening tee time intervals to 8 minutes.

He said they refuse to change that policy, no matter how much he fights them about it, which sucks for him because he's the one in the line of fire from angry customers. I guess their management is collecting the money, so they don't care about anything else, which is a shame. I won't go back there again.

That pretty much sums up the problem with a lot of things these days.You have people that own a business having no idea how to run it correctly only looking at the dollar signs but not caring about how they get it.

In Southern California, they have a course that opens early in the morning when it is pitch black dark.   When my brother showed up, starter handed the group "light" ball (the one that flashes on contact) to be collected later.   So, the group played in pitch dark with "light" balls (goes about 20 yards shorter, rolls funny) until the sun came up.   My brother was so pissed off at the practice, he didn't bother turn in those balls.

[Golfingdad]

In Southern California, they have a course that opens early in the morning when it is pitch black dark.   When my brother showed up, starter handed the group "light" ball (the one that flashes on contact) to be collected later.   So, the group played in pitch dark with "light" balls (goes about 20 yards shorter, rolls funny) until the sun came up.   My brother was so pissed off at the practice, he didn't bother turn in those balls.

The picture I posted above is a course in Irvine that does exactly that.  (Although they said we could keep the glow balls.)  It's dumb.  Like I also said above, that course is a last last resort when everything else is booked and it's either there or don't play golf at all.

People joke about Top Flites or Pinnacles being "rocks" but these balls deserved that moniker.  The first (and thankfully only) drive I hit with that stupid thing felt like it was going to break my club.

[natureboy]

The traffic jam analogy is probably the best one as far as the core issue. The course is a one-lane road and traffic speed with heavy volume will be set by a slow group and what's worse, the density wave will persist even after they've left the course. Perhaps this is where the focus on a high traffic course has to be directed.

When I started, I was probably guilty of slow play. Not anymore as I manage 18 in a little over 3 hours (with a cart) with no one in front or by politely playing through.

Part of my initial slowness was unfamiliarity with pace of play etiquette and all the myriad details of prepping a shot. My initial playing partners could have helped a bit by giving me a little orientation about pace of play, when to pick up, club selection, distance to the pin, etc. I was just trying to enjoy the round and play my best. I learned about these issues after I got hooked and got better. I had already been working on my full swing a bit before I even started playing rounds, knowing that trying to learn on the course would be an exercise in frustration.

Education is one place to start - encourage beginning golfers to identify themselves so they can be given a 'quick tips' sheet for a more enjoyable round for themselves (and the rest of the course). I certainly didn't intend to be slow an hold people up. Free beginner clinics to introduce folks to the game who don't have someone to introduce them to the game can include lots of good etiquette instruction along with some 'how to play' basics.

Also, on my first few rounds I should have played well forward. I am still playing the whites until I break 90 at which point I will drop to the blues (6300) which are more suitable to my driving distance (though the whites are often very close to the blues on the longer holes). I have seen lots of guys tee off from the blues who were chasing wild (and often pretty short) shots in the trees all day holding up play behind them. My home course only has 3 tee boxes per hole for four sets of tees. If there was money (it's a muni), a further forward set of tees would make sense. Personally, I consider the back tees something I should earn with skill / practice. If I want to see how far I can bomb it at a target by myself or with buddies, the range works fine.

With forward tees - don't call them ladies' or senior tees if you want them used by the shorter or beginning players who would benefit. I saw a course in Sweden had like 6 tee boxes marked with numbers for HI. Make the tee markers so that you can add some text on them (or a sign on the hole # marker) explaining which tee is appropriate based on experience / driving distance / average score / HI so the tee it forward message is constantly reinforced. Given what has been said about the bottleneck at Par 3's extra tee boxes on those holes is probably more crucial so that the length of the tee shot is more appropriate to the player's ability and a bottleneck avoided.

As far as self-awareness, the initial golf experience was so full of details I was rushing to keep track of, I never even paused to think about total time on the hole. Rather than the USGA timing device in the flagstick, how about a cheap electronic buzzer (like a cell phone on vibrate) that you get when you pay for the round. You push a button after you first tee off and then it buzzes / goes off when the correct hole interval has been passed? Then you would know when to pick up or double-time.

I had thought that having special windows for beginners was a good idea, but given different free time schedules for newbies and experienced players, some from both groups would inevitably end up locked out when they wanted to play.

Here's another wacky idea. If you are encouraging new golfers to self-identify at the pro shop or first tee, give them a bunch of free low-end or range 'loaner' balls. Then encourage them to play multiple provisionals from the tee and not even bother searching in the woods & bushes. Then they wouldn't waste as much time hunting for the ball, and they wouldn't worry about wasting a couple of their own bucks. Would that cost the course much in the long run, especially if that person had more fun in their first rounds and kept coming back to play or even better to take lessons & practice (and everyone else was happier with the pace)?

[GoodGuyGreg45]

I had a pretty lengthy chat with a starter once while I was waiting for my turn to tee off. The course was backed up 40 minutes for no apparent reason at all, just sheer volume. He said they used to be fine when they had 10 minute intervals, but a new management company came in and changed a bunch of policies, including shortening tee time intervals to 8 minutes.

I've seen 10 minute back ups, occasionally the 15-20 minute wait, but 40 minutes is unacceptable especially if a starter was present.

One thing I've generally observed from groups when there is a back up, large or small, is they do not actively try to eliminate it. I do not think they treat the first tee as they would the other 17 on the course. I've seen plenty of groups leave the putting green and arrive at the first tee right at their 11:00 AM tee time. Once they physically get on the tee box, each guy takes 4-10 practice swings because its the first tee and they want to make sure they are as loose as possible. Then they will look at each other for two minutes trying to decide on who will be the first to play, proceed to take "two off the first tee", run back to the cart to get that second ball, and finally after 7 minutes they are off. These things can add up without really being noticed by many.

Its another one of those may be they do not know, or may be they do not care situations, but just because the next group doesn't tee off for 8 minutes doesn't mean you have the tee box for 8 minutes. It means you have 8 minutes to play both your tee shot and approach shot in order to clear the fairway for the next group.

[Spitfisher]

Perhaps, but who wants to start their round with a par three?

One of our local course, is over 100 years old & is a Donald Ross design. On hole number one, par 3 , OB left, trouble right 190-200 to a very small green with deep rough and slope on 3 of the sides.  When we speak about the toughest holes in the area this one always comes up as the one of the toughest. If you get par, you have a little spring in your step heading to the 2nd tee.