Article Says Real Reason for Slow Play is Short Tee Time Intervals

[Golfingdad]

4:40 pace or so. I would suggest he's actually pretty close to being on pace.

3:06 is 13.3 minutes per hole. 239.14 minutes for 18 holes is almost 4 hours exactly. :)

Yeah, that was at the tee so 3:06 to play 14 holes plus another 53 minutes to play the last 4 is just a few seconds shy of 4 hours.  I would presume then that their goal pace is probably 4:30.

This stuff is all great, but the problem is that the people who take advantage of the information are usually not the culprits.  I imagine too many slow players probably just don't care.

[GolfLug]

I do not understand the logic that tee time spacing affects pace of play of the entire round. All shorter intervals do is create a back up (bottleneck) at the first tee since the groups naturally space themselves out as play progresses after first tee whether it is 10 mins or more between shots.

As a rule the course is only as fast as it's slowest group (unless they are letting people through all day). Par 3s may be bottlenecks but that is by design i.e., they are intrinsically slow holes (budgeted more time). They don't create slow play.

8 minute intervals allow more groups to line up at the first tee who think they are getting an 'earlier' tee time only to wait from 7:30 to 7:50 (e.g.) to get off the first tee. It allows the course to sign up more group who like to start early. It is psychological to some extent and courses milk it as much as possible.

[Fourputt]

I do not understand the logic that tee time spacing affects pace of play of the entire round. All shorter intervals do is create a back up (bottleneck) at the first tee since the groups naturally space themselves out as play progresses after first tee whether it is 10 mins or more between shots.

As a rule the course is only as fast as it's slowest group (unless they are letting people through all day). Par 3s may be bottlenecks but that is by design i.e., they are intrinsically slow holes (budgeted more time). They don't create slow play.

8 minute intervals allow more groups to line up at the first tee who think they are getting an 'earlier' tee time only to wait from 7:30 to 7:50 (e.g.) to get off the first tee. It allows the course to sign up more group who like to start early. It is psychological to some extent and courses milk it as much as possible.

The shorter the tee intervals the less time any group has for a delay like a ball search, even if they only take a couple of the 5 minutes the rules allow.  With a 10 minute instead of an 8 minute interval, that gives them 2 more minutes before the group behind them jams up.  They have a little more time to get past their own delay and get back on time without backing up anyone else.  Once a backup starts on a course where there is no wiggle room between tee times, it turns in to an accordion effect,  and even when the group at the head of the jam moves out, the ones behind still keep running into the back end of the blockade.

I worked as a starter for 5 years and there were days when one or two log jams never cleared out until well after noon when play slowed down.  They didn't always occur on what might be an expected bottleneck hole either - just depended on where a group or 2 happened to have trouble.  It can also make players in the backup lay blame where it doesn't belong.  The group that causes the problem suddenly realizes what they have done and takes off, the next group does the same, and one of the groups following now has a hole and a half open in front when they were waiting on every shot 15 minutes earlier.  I rarely see such issues when I play a course with 10 minute intervals.

[iacas]

The shorter the tee intervals the less time any group has for a delay like a ball search, even if they only take a couple of the 5 minutes the rules allow.  With a 10 minute instead of an 8 minute interval, that gives them 2 more minutes before the group behind them jams up.  They have a little more time to get past their own delay and get back on time without backing up anyone else.  Once a backup starts on a course where there is no wiggle room between tee times, it turns in to an accordion effect,  and even when the group at the head of the jam moves out, the ones behind still keep running into the back end of the blockade.

To add to that…

http://freakonomics.com/2008/03/10/what-causes-traffic-jams-you/

http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2010/8/26/redefining-bumper-to-bumper/the-ripple-effect-of-bad-driving

http://www.smartmotorist.com/traffic-and-safety-guideline/traffic-jams.html

http://phys.org/news117283969.html

Executive Summary: Traffic Jams can cause ripple effects that are visible eight hours after the traffic jam was removed. A traffic jam on the 14th hole can back everyone up right to the first tee.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traffic_congestion

[natureboy]

What would be the tangible consequence for running over the allotted time? Multiple sports have some type of shot clock and teams still regularly accept the penalty for allowing it to expire.

I know a good amount of courses in my area are equipping carts with GPS, so maybe you track each groups pace of play through that. If your group takes longer than x amount of time then you're put on some type of blacklist. First offense you cannot play with more than 3 for your next two outings? Second offense you lose the privilege of riding if that is what you prefer or have to play during non peak times, and third offense you are suspended indefinitely? If people choose not to return then the particular course makes a name for themselves as a course not tolerant of slow play. Just like when you head up to the local YMCA and want to play basketball, you usually have the option of playing full court or half court games. Some courses could start branding in such a manner.

Yes, that is the rub. My belief is that most people don't intentionally want to hold up groups behind them and the awareness gained from the clock will help those people not impede the flow. Then it may be easier for course officials to identify the miscreants - if they care to take action / intervene. Much harder to do on a public course.

I agree with many that our 'models' on the PGA won't improve until they actually start penalizing individual slow players with strokes.

@iacas , the NY Times article mentioned 'adaptive' speed limits. What about encouraging newer / slower players to play later in the day and expand the tee interval at that time, but keep the tighter interval for more experienced skilled players who tend to start early in the day?

[iacas]

@iacas, the NY Times article mentioned 'adaptive' speed limits. What about encouraging newer / slower players to play later in the day and expand the tee interval at that time, but keep the tighter interval for more experienced skilled players who tend to start early in the day?

Good luck with that, is what I'd say.

People will complain. Lie about their handicaps and speed.

Plus, slower does not mean they're newer or worse players.

[natureboy]

Good luck with that, is what I'd say.

People will complain. Lie about their handicaps and speed.

Plus, slower does not mean they're newer or worse players.

Well do the starters generally know who the regular offenders are, but just don't address them specifically?

I once played with a guy who refused my suggestion to let a group behind play through due to my slower than average play (drives to 'other') at the time. He wasn't slow, but his ego issue prevented me from helping the flow of play.

It just seems to me that one single approach isn't the solution. There are two groups who seem to create slow play. The unaware / newish golfer who hits way offline a lot and is searching for lost balls, and experienced players who are slow, but don't make accommodations to the rest of the course. I say help the newbies with education, cheap balls to hit wild (and just ignore), and larger tee intervals, and apply the social pressure (marshals / playing partner scowls / penalties) to those who should know better, but don't adjust to help everyone else.

[iacas]

Well do the starters generally know who the regular offenders are, but just don't address them specifically?

Many courses don't even have starters.

[Lihu]

Yes, that is the rub. My belief is that most people don't intentionally want to hold up groups behind them and the awareness gained from the clock will help those people not impede the flow. Then it may be easier for course officials to identify the miscreants - if they care to take action / intervene. Much harder to do on a public course.

I agree with many that our 'models' on the PGA won't improve until they actually start penalizing individual slow players with strokes.

@iacas, the NY Times article mentioned 'adaptive' speed limits. What about encouraging newer / slower players to play later in the day and expand the tee interval at that time, but keep the tighter interval for more experienced skilled players who tend to start early in the day?

This kind of happens naturally at most of the places I play. The slower players get tired of getting hit into, and play the twilight times or super twilight. It's cheaper for beginners too. I've seen 6+ hour rounds at super twilight.

Good luck with that, is what I'd say.

People will complain. Lie about their handicaps and speed.

Plus, slower does not mean they're newer or worse players.

Los Serranos tried to keep the more experienced players ahead of the slower ones. I went on a B-day round there, and they grilled me on my skill level and put me with one of the regular golfers for the day. Ironically, he slowed down my play.

I ended up playing the harder course because it was the open one that day, and they put a foursome behind us, who looked really indignant when we teed off. It looked like they wanted to ask us if they could play through, but we already moved on. Never saw them again after the first hole.

Well do the starters generally know who the regular offenders are, but just don't address them specifically?

I once played with a guy who refused my suggestion to let a group behind play through due to my slower than average play (drives to 'other') at the time. He wasn't slow, but his ego issue prevented me from helping the flow of play.

It just seems to me that one single approach isn't the solution. There are two groups who seem to create slow play. The unaware / newish golfer who hits way offline a lot and is searching for lost balls, and experienced players who are slow, but don't make accommodations to the rest of the course. I say help the newbies with education, cheap balls to hit wild (and just ignore), and larger tee intervals, and apply the social pressure (marshals / playing partner scowls / penalties) to those who should know better, but don't adjust to help everyone else.

See above. It doesn't really work all the time. Sometimes, you let some players through only to be stopped at the next tee box.

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by natureboy

Well do the starters generally know who the regular offenders are, but just don't address them specifically?

Many courses don't even have starters.

And not all courses have a captive clientele.  For a busy public course in an urban area, the customer base can be huge, and aside from a handful of "regulars", it changes every day.  Same is true of a resort course.  Sure, I got to know the regular players well after my first year in the starter booth, but they were rarely the problem.  They only made up about 35% of the tee sheet on any given day.  It was the other 65% that were totally unpredictable.  They might be great, they might be clueless, but you usually had no way of knowing until they were out on the course.

[saevel25]

And not all courses have a captive clientele.  For a busy public course in an urban area, the customer base can be huge, and aside from a handful of "regulars", it changes every day.  Same is true of a resort course.  Sure, I got to know the regular players well after my first year in the starter booth, but they were rarely the problem.  They only made up about 35% of the tee sheet on any given day.  It was the other 65% that were totally unpredictable.  They might be great, they might be clueless, but you usually had no way of knowing until they were out on the course.

I'd disagree with that. Maybe if you are talking courses around BIG cities. Even in Columbus, I bet a lot of people play the same courses. I know in Dayton, the municipal courses make all their money off golf leagues through out the year. They get A LOT of regulars who show up. It just isn't a handful of regulars, this are people who worked in Dayton for years and know each other. I can't tell you the number of times the guys I work will will call out someone from another league to say hello.

The only time I would say huge turnover with different golfers would be in resort areas, or vacation areas. In big non-vacation urban areas, you probably see a good amount of regulars.

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

And not all courses have a captive clientele.  For a busy public course in an urban area, the customer base can be huge, and aside from a handful of "regulars", it changes every day.  Same is true of a resort course.  Sure, I got to know the regular players well after my first year in the starter booth, but they were rarely the problem.  They only made up about 35% of the tee sheet on any given day.  It was the other 65% that were totally unpredictable.  They might be great, they might be clueless, but you usually had no way of knowing until they were out on the course.

I'd disagree with that. Maybe if you are talking courses around BIG cities. Even in Columbus, I bet a lot of people play the same courses. I know in Dayton, the municipal courses make all their money off golf leagues through out the year. They get A LOT of regulars who show up. It just isn't a handful of regulars, this are people who worked in Dayton for years and know each other. I can't tell you the number of times the guys I work will will call out someone from another league to say hello.

The only time I would say huge turnover with different golfers would be in resort areas, or vacation areas. In big non-vacation urban areas, you probably see a good amount of regulars.

My 5 years working as a starter would refute your belief.  Like I said, only about 35% were what I'd call regulars.  The rest came from all over the Denver metro area and beyond.  They might play the course once or twice a season.  It was as widely varied as a resort course, but since the district didn't offer annual passes or memberships, it didn't have the sort of loyal following that you get on those types of public courses.

[rehmwa]

The courses I play with geo-fenced and monitored carts are the fastest.

disabling slow players so they can wait even longer.....I don't see how that's a benefit.  The ranger can find them regardless, of whether they are stuck or still moving.  The carts are numbered and he has that info.

carts that shut off if you leave the hole......same thing.  forcing someone to walk to the adjacent fairway to hit instead of quickly driving up to it slows it down even further.  for that matter - if they try to drive over there and the cart shuts off, then they have to push it back into zone......yeah...real time saver.  We have a local course like this.

I like the 'pace' display though.  Even more, I like that it shows where the other carts are too....and the distances.

[Dave2512]

disabling slow players so they can wait even longer.

Not about making them faster but getting them out of the way and eliminating the delay. I'm sure it's a last resort. The two times I saw disabled carts they were between the 5th and 6th hole. It's the corner of the course on stretch where there is significant travel between holes where carts moving around wouldn't disrupt play. My guess is the ranger came out and made them roll out to the 8th tee when their time slot was supposed to be there because 6 and 7 play across a road and you cross another before getting to 8, there is a shortcut back to the club house that passes by the 8th tee.

This course has quite a few intersecting paths with painted arrows and signs to keep carts moving in the right direction because it winds through houses. Some of the holes have 200 yards between greens and tees, tunnels under streets etc. Despite all that it's the fastest course we play because the carts keep things moving. Golfers that get stupid tend not to do it again. Only takes one instance of pushing the cart back to the path and it likely doesn't happen again because they know the consequence. It's different than trying to reason with a timid ranger.

[HanNL]

Here in The Netherlands, people hardly use carts, let alone carts with gps, or carts that auto-disable when you go off the cartpath... We just walk the course. Pace of play is usually only a problem on very busy courses. You get the occasional fourball that won't let you through even though they have a wide open course ahead of them, but busy courses (pay-and-play) can be bad. Mostly because of starting times being too tight and people not recognising when they're behind (and acting on it).

ps. I made an English version of the pace of play Excel sheet. Available on request.

[turtleback]

It seems apparent that the slow play issue really has (at least)  aspects to it.  Course design and management is one of them and player behavior is the other.  I think the sad reality is that the latter of these is the more intractable problem.  But I think that the comments here show that there are things that can be done on the course side.

So, is this a business opportunity?  I could definitely see some value in a pace of play course consultant who comes in and reviews operations and makes recommendations as to course changes and operational changes to improve pace of play while keeping the economics of the course strong.

[HanNL]

It seems apparent that the slow play issue really has (at least)  aspects to it.  Course design and management is one of them and player behavior is the other.  I think the sad reality is that the latter of these is the more intractable problem.  But I think that the comments here show that there are things that can be done on the course side.

So, is this a business opportunity?  I could definitely see some value in a pace of play course consultant who comes in and reviews operations and makes recommendations as to course changes and operational changes to improve pace of play while keeping the economics of the course strong.

I would love that job! (tbh I have actually looked into it, but not sure what my prospects would be here in NL).

[lumpuckeroo]

I have no data to support more intervals on tee times will or won't speed up pace of play, but I know for a fact that the two ladies that always tee off around the same time we do play fast.  They ride a cart, we both walk, but anyway you shake it, they play faster than us.  They don't hit drive much more the 175 yards, but they hit them straight, so they never look for a ball and they move it out.  I think slow play starts with the mentality of the people playing.