Would you play a non-conforming (illegal) driver?

[Moppy]

I would. I have no delusions about my golf game. I play solely for fun. I have noticed the game is a lot more enjoyable in the summer when I am hitting the ball further.

This.

Me too. The later in the summer, the farther I hit it too. Probably from the muscle build up, IDK, but I am pretty sure with a non conforming driver, that I wouldn't be threatening most people here's game and I would get many more looks at par and even birdie.

I am in Florida now, recovered from my surgery, and am going to play next week with my friend who is coming down for a week of golf, well visiting the range, my slice came back, and I was even considering a little Vaseline on the driver face. I worked on it for a week though, and I have straightened out my drives, so that is not required, but at my age, and for how much I play, the length is just not coming and a non conforming driver sounds good if it really works. I don't bet, and don't play tournaments, and would always reveal it to a playing partner, however.

[lumpuckeroo]

Just to go against the trend, heck yes I would.  When I go on our buddies trip and I'm always 20-30 yards behind everyone on the drive, you bet I'd use it (and darn sure wouldn't tell them about it).  I'm the oldest one of the group and the first to start seeing a distance loss, so anything to one up my buddies without them knowing about it, you bet I'd do it (and throw in a non-conforming ball)!!!!

[joekelly]

Who wants to be a cheater?  Course not.  But what if the club was 15* loft, and had a shaft 43 inches long and was outside the parameters of the 'conforming' stats? And you could hit the ball further with that club than your 10.5* 'conforming' driver.

Such a club would be deemed legal for play. So let's get on those club makers for super-trampoline 15* drivers. I'd grab one for sure (if under $100).

[MiniBlueDragon]

Bring it!

[Lihu]

Never during any round that meant something. Even if I was simply playing to see how well I score. However I would give it a try once, maybe during a "fart around" round to see if it really offered more as advertised. Maybe at a "beer drinking" Scramble, because my group never seems to win anyway (too many bloody marys, way too early)

If the beer drinking scramble is a match against other teams, that's a problem. Unless, the prize is more rounds of beers. :beer:

[Lihu]

Just to go against the trend, heck yes I would.  When I go on our buddies trip and I'm always 20-30 yards behind everyone on the drive, you bet I'd use it (and darn sure wouldn't tell them about it).  I'm the oldest one of the group and the first to start seeing a distance loss, so anything to one up my buddies without them knowing about it, you bet I'd do it (and throw in a non-conforming ball)!!!!

This is admirable, but if you use this super driver with super balls it would be pretty obvious to your buddies. :-D For your enjoyment of the game, though, this is a smart move and I know people who do it. I bet if more of us amateurs used non conforming equipment the game could gain some popularity as well. I just wonder how much you can increase the efficiency?

[NJpatbee]

No, I would not.  Today's conforming 460cc drivers are super long to the point that I hit the ball longer than I ever expected to at my age.  Plus, I keep a handicap mostly for my monitoring my game or friendly Nassau or Skins games and I want it to be accurate.  It is also reassuring to know my scores are legitimate and I am within the rules as set up by the USGA.  It might be fun on a driving range just foolong around but that is about it for me.

[treebound]

When I used to play a lot in California I regularly found non-conforming smaller diameter golf balls that were lost in the rough. So  many that I notched the back flap of my rule book with the width to match the conforming diameter just so I could more quickly check balls.

Using non-conforming clubs or other equipment just for fun, no problem with it personally, like the longest length driver video posted above. (how far does he hit that thing?)

But if you're playing for money or stats or handicap or in a tournament then I'm against the non-conforming gear.

And if I'm playing someone for fun with a friendly wager on the side, and if they are using non-conforming gear, then they had better declare the non-conformance beforehand otherwise all bets are off as well as all future trust (and a few of their balls may somehow get lost as well). No different than playing cards with someone, if you need to cheat then you're admitting that you don't have the skills to win fairly.  Life ain't fair, but then often paybacks are fair either. Play straight and nothing to worry about as far as rules and retribution go.

[colin007]

I've seen a couple much older golfers with thinned faces

old age tends to be tough on the skin.  youll be there one day too.

[MrFlipper]

Hey mvmac is there a new one coming out? Or was this a more general question?

I voted no, but if folks want to get distance in an outside the rules way, there are always illegal balls, thinned face drivers, putting wd-40 or vaseline on irons, lots of ways to cheat.

If you would play an illegal driver, would you be upset if your buddies played illegal balls or put vaseline on their irons? Or several of those things? Where do you draw the line?

Why not just tee it forward if you have a distance problem?

Just curious. If a new hot illegal club is coming out I'd sure like to know so I can keep an eye out for it with the folks I play with---

[Fourputt]

No.  Not just no, but Hell No!!

Regardless of the relevance of the round, I would not use one.  I want every round I play to be comparable to any round I've played in the past.  Even though I doubt that use of one would make a significant difference in my scoring, it would make a difference in how I felt about that round.  I play all of my golf by the rules so that I am always playing the same game, and that includes using conforming clubs.  I would find it quite disheartening to play a stellar round, maybe a personal best, and have it made illegitimate because I used a nonconforming club.  To me that would be no accomplishment at all, no different than if I had taken a handful of mulligans, or otherwise ignored the rules.

[Spitfisher]

Funny how the presumption is made that the ball or distance will be further in using an illegal non conforming drive. For the sake of argument non conforming can be length, size and material of a golf club. If you took length for example a 50 inch length driver, only a very small percentage <5% of players could possibly hit it longer than their present driver. with no guarentees of consistency and accuracy.

The Calloway ERC II was the perhaps the most famous of non conforming drivers, there were others some taylormade and even some adams models. Both the calloway and taylormade offered free returns and replacement for their models as deemed Illegal. In certain circles most people thought it was more free publicity, of "our drivers is so long its illegal- if you own one please trade it in"....by the way very you did, in fact more people came in to our shop specifcally looking for them....

Both Ron Dupreau & Mark King were genius at marketing genius.  So what made them illegal, simply put the ball coming off the face was a little more than the 83% allowed. But it was under 86% which could be used in Europe at the time.

The explanation is below, but if you think a mid handicapper could hit a ball &  suddenly get an extra 15-20 yards back then , well you are mistaken.By today s standard that extra yardage is now gaines by higher lofted drivers that create spin on a larger portion of the face, combined with better golf ball design and aerodynamics  than that ERC II with is Variable face technology or inverted cone face technology from TM could ever provide.

COR is actually a measurement of the energy transfer in a collision of two objects.  It can be expressed in a number between 0 and 1.  For example, when the USGA put a COR limit of 0.830 on driver faces, that meant no driver would be deemed to be conforming to the rules if more than 83% of the energy in the collision of the driver head with a golf ball were transferred from the head to the ball.

[vangator]

Never. Most of my games are in league or against others with a few bucks on the line. I have a non conforming wedge I'd love to play, but I was called on it years ago and have never played it again. It backs the ball up on a down hill slope. :-) I would enforce the rule against anyone that would play a non conforming club (or ball) in a real match against me. If we were playing for fun, I wouldn't care if they played with a cannon. It's their game and have fun with it. It's only my concern when their hands are reaching into my wallet! :-)

[Lihu]

Hey mvmac is there a new one coming out? Or was this a more general question?

I voted no, but if folks want to get distance in an outside the rules way, there are always illegal balls, thinned face drivers, putting wd-40 or vaseline on irons, lots of ways to cheat.

If you would play an illegal driver, would you be upset if your buddies played illegal balls or put vaseline on their irons? Or several of those things? Where do you draw the line?

Why not just tee it forward if you have a distance problem?

Just curious. If a new hot illegal club is coming out I'd sure like to know so I can keep an eye out for it with the folks I play with---

How would anyone get away with this? Every shot I make with my irons has a clump of dirt on the bottom of the club face stuck to it. You would need to reapply it every single shot. Plus, isn't the club shinier with the oil or grease on it?

On top of these questions, how the heck does putting this stuff on the face help?

Forgive me if I am asking, but I am not aware of all these other tactics.

[mvmac]

Quick note, the Callaway ERC II exceeds the USGA limit for COR, still legal under R&A; rules. I don't know if they still do but i t is/was common especially in Japan, to release a non-conforming version of the regular OEM models. TaylorMade has the XR line, Wilson had one with a COR of .9 and Nike would add a "+" to their drivers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrFlipper

Hey mvmac is there a new one coming out? Or was this a more general question?

More of a general question, there was some talk of non-conforming clubs coming to the market earlier in the year. Seems to have died down but I think there are companies keeping an eye out. There are a decent amount of golfers out there that don't keep a USGA handicap and don't compete in tournaments.

http://www.golfdigest.com/golfworld/2014-03/gwar-nonconforming-golf-clubs-0310

Quote:

Talk of nonconforming equipment has gotten louder and more constant. Not since Ely Callaway unveiled his ERC II in October 2000 has there been so much discussion about the possibility of a major equipment manufacturer essentially sticking it to the USGA and its equipment rules.

It's a touchy topic. Some consider it the third rail of golf. So much so that Callaway, Cleveland, Nike and Titleist all declined to be interviewed for this article, the latter pointing to its paper on "The Case for Unification" on its website as its position on the matter. Others, however, had plenty to say.

"I think we're probably closer than we have been since ERC II," says Sean Toulon, executive VP for TaylorMade -- a company that debuted a nonconforming set of four clubs meant to strike a larger-than-normal ball into a 15-inch cup at the PGA Merchandise Show in January.

Bob Philion, president of Cobra-Puma Golf, also feels nonconforming equipment is on the horizon. "There is a sense of urgency in the industry, whether from our competitors or the PGA of America, to be less intimidating and more fun," says Philion. "Do I think nonconforming drivers will be out there in 10 years? I do. Three years? I do. I think the street signs for the game aren't positive enough for someone not to try it."

[Fourputt]

How would anyone get away with this? Every shot I make with my irons has a clump of dirt on the bottom of the club face stuck to it. You would need to reapply it every single shot. Plus, isn't the club shinier with the oil or grease on it?

On top of these questions, how the heck does putting this stuff on the face help?

Forgive me if I am asking, but I am not aware of all these other tactics.

It helps reduce sidespin, thus reducing or eliminating slices and hooks.  Because it also reduces backspin, it changes the ball flight somewhat, usually making for a lower trajectory.

[MrFlipper]

How would anyone get away with this? Every shot I make with my irons has a clump of dirt on the bottom of the club face stuck to it. You would need to reapply it every single shot. Plus, isn't the club shinier with the oil or grease on it?

On top of these questions, how the heck does putting this stuff on the face help?

Forgive me if I am asking, but I am not aware of all these other tactics.

I haven't seen that particular cheat for many years, but I assume it would still work with today's low spin golf balls. Idea is to lower spin, so you get a flier every time that goes straight. Never did it myself other than to see how it worked but when you get in money games as a teen at the muni there are lots of cheaters, some better at it and some worse. The really good cheaters are never caught, kinda like your buddy in college dealing off the bottom of the deck in blackjack but you can't see how he does it.

Pretty easy to do, esp some anal idiot like me who cleans his clubs thoroughly after each shot as a routine. I could load up a hat or sleeve or towel or something with vaseline like a baseball pitcher, and yes you do have to apply it before each shot. If you aren't paying attention it is easy for someone else to get away with, I guess you would notice it first by the trajectory of the ball and the way it would act when it lands. I doubt you would notice the shiny clubface, you could hide it away from prying eyes.

To me this is more sophisticated cheating, people who would jack their ball up in the rough know they can get caught so they do less obvious stuff.

It's a jungle out there! But you sure learn how to play the game, how to score, when playing for a little money.

[Golfingdad]

Quick note, the Callaway ERC II exceeds the USGA limit for COR, still legal under R&A; rules. I don't know if they still do but it is/was common especially in Japan, to release a non-conforming version of the regular OEM models. TaylorMade has the XR line, Wilson had one with a COR of .9 and Nike would add a "+" to their drivers.

More of a general question, there was some talk of non-conforming clubs coming to the market earlier in the year. Seems to have died down but I think there are companies keeping an eye out. There are a decent amount of golfers out there that don't keep a USGA handicap and don't compete in tournaments.

http://www.golfdigest.com/golfworld/2014-03/gwar-nonconforming-golf-clubs-0310

I feel like this will be a nightmare for us who play in tournaments amongst regular amateurs.  Not so much guys who are intentionally cheating, but also guys who are just not paying enough attention.  Maybe the USGA could try and at least make them make it realllllly obvious that it's an illegal club in some way?  Politely ask that manufacturers all put a green stripe on the bottom, or a pink dot, or something to make it easy for everybody to know if its illegal.