Would you play a non-conforming (illegal) driver?

[Fourputt]

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Originally Posted by Lihu

Yeah, I seem to be missing a critical chunk of history here.

I should review all the articles written in that time frame.

Here is the thing.  Do you want to play better or do you just want to write a lower score down?  Because a non-conforming club will only do one of these.  If you hit it 15 yards further with a non-conforming club it isn't because you played better.  Why would doing the exact same thing but getting a better result - because of something you bought not something you did -  give any satisfaction?  I just do not get this mindset.

Why do people look for the longest driver they can get that is still within the rules?

Because they don't actually know what they are doing?

[Lihu]

What if the USGA came out with a rule that everyone needs to use blades and only one hybrid and 2 woods were allowed? Further, that graphite shafts are now illegal? I would venture to guess that everyone but me would complain. This is obvously extreme, but illustrates the potential flaw in the argument against currently non conforming equipment. Someday, high cor drivers might be perfectly legal. If you're willing to spend $10,000 on a driver you might get that 1% more performance? Future technology holds a lot potential for the game, and I'm not one to say no to progress.

[newtogolf]

What if the USGA came out with a rule that everyone needs to use blades and only one hybrid and 2 woods were allowed? Further, that graphite shafts are now illegal? I would venture to guess that everyone but me would complain.

This is obvously extreme, but illustrates the potential flaw in the argument against currently non conforming equipment.

Someday, high cor drivers might be perfectly legal. If you're willing to spend $10,000 on a driver you might get that 1% more performance? Future technology holds a lot potential for the game, and I'm not one to say no to progress.

The USGA is a governing body that makes decisions based on what they believe is in the best interest of the game.  There have been recent discussions about equipment rollbacks to clubs and golf balls but nothing has come of it to date.

The USGA is likely more focused on how equipment impacts the playability of better players on established courses not weekend hackers who use foot wedges, gimmes and mulligans.   If you don't play by the rules, then USGA equipment conformance shouldn't matter either.

[Lihu]

[QUOTE name="Lihu" url="/t/79650/would-you-play-a-non-conforming-illegal-driver/90_30#post_1100947"] What if the USGA came out with a rule that everyone needs to use blades and only one hybrid and 2 woods were allowed? Further, that graphite shafts are now illegal? I would venture to guess that everyone but me would complain. This is obvously extreme, but illustrates the potential flaw in the argument against currently non conforming equipment. Someday, high cor drivers might be perfectly legal. If you're willing to spend $10,000 on a driver you might get that 1% more performance? Future technology holds a lot potential for the game, and I'm not one to say no to progress.[/QUOTE] The USGA is a governing body that makes decisions based on what they believe is in the best interest of the game.  There have been recent discussions about equipment rollbacks to clubs and golf balls but nothing has come of it to date. The USGA is likely more focused on how equipment impacts the playability of better players on established courses not weekend hackers who use foot wedges, gimmes and mulligans.   If you don't play by the rules, then USGA equipment conformance shouldn't matter either.

I think it does make a difference to everyone who wants to compete?

[billchao]

What if the USGA came out with a rule that everyone needs to use blades and only one hybrid and 2 woods were allowed? Further, that graphite shafts are now illegal? I would venture to guess that everyone but me would complain. This is obvously extreme, but illustrates the potential flaw in the argument against currently non conforming equipment.

You're going to have to elaborate, pkease, because I fail to see what you're getting at. [quote name="Lihu" url="/t/79650/would-you-play-a-non-conforming-illegal-driver/90#post_1100947"]Someday, high cor drivers might be perfectly legal. If you're willing to spend $10,000 on a driver you might get that 1% more performance? Future technology holds a lot potential for the game, and I'm not one to say no to progress.[/quote]There's high COR driver heads out in the market now. Like I mentioned before, there are real issues involved with players hitting the ball longer. Not all progress is good.

[Fourputt]

What if the USGA came out with a rule that everyone needs to use blades and only one hybrid and 2 woods were allowed? Further, that graphite shafts are now illegal? I would venture to guess that everyone but me would complain.

This is obvously extreme, but illustrates the potential flaw in the argument against currently non conforming equipment.

Someday, high cor drivers might be perfectly legal. If you're willing to spend $10,000 on a driver you might get that 1% more performance? Future technology holds a lot potential for the game, and I'm not one to say no to progress.

I would conform to the rules because that's how I feel the game should be played.  I would do so because I trust the USGA's knowledge and judgement on how golf should be properly played over the often poorly informed opinion of anyone on an internet golf forum.  There is a lot more to golf than just banging 300 yard drives.  Obviously you don't agree, but that's where it's at.

I've hit maybe a handful of honest 300 yard drives in my life, and most of those were aided by wind or frozen winter fairways.  Yet for some odd reason, I've still managed to eak some semblance of fun from the game.  Shockingly, without hitting 300 yard drives, or even hitting 50% GIR, I've managed to shoot quite a few rounds under 80, including a 1 over par 73.  I've beaten the head pro at my old course straight up, despite being typically outdriven by 30 yards or more (granted it was a magical day for me and an average day for him - I was 3 under through 11).

Guys like you who took up the game so recently missed out on a lot of golf education (and, believe it or not, fun) by never playing wooden woods, or by not getting to learn the game from the start with forged blades.  Nobody used a lob wedge, most sand wedges were about 52-54 degrees, and that was the highest lofted club in your bag.  Heck I didn't even have a sand wedge until the mid 80s.  Seems like the slant towards golf now is that everyone wants to match a club to a shot, instead of matching a shot the club they have available.  You want the game to come with the clubs instead of from within yourself.

I'm not focusing this rant just on you, you're just handy.  I see it on every golf forum or blog I read.  I hear it on the course and in the clubhouse.  I guess that for some it's just the nature of the game.  When a sport is so equipment driven, people will always want more, and rules makers will always have to fight those players in their attempts to keep the game under control.

[14ledo81]

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Originally Posted by 14ledo81

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Originally Posted by Lihu

Yeah, I seem to be missing a critical chunk of history here.

I should review all the articles written in that time frame.

Here is the thing.  Do you want to play better or do you just want to write a lower score down?  Because a non-conforming club will only do one of these.  If you hit it 15 yards further with a non-conforming club it isn't because you played better.  Why would doing the exact same thing but getting a better result - because of something you bought not something you did -  give any satisfaction?  I just do not get this mindset.

Why do people look for the longest driver they can get that is still within the rules?

Because they don't actually know what they are doing?

So people that go in for a driver fitting, and buy the driver they hit the longest, don't know what they are doing?

[Fourputt]

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Originally Posted by Fourputt

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Originally Posted by 14ledo81

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Originally Posted by Lihu

Yeah, I seem to be missing a critical chunk of history here.

I should review all the articles written in that time frame.

Here is the thing.  Do you want to play better or do you just want to write a lower score down?  Because a non-conforming club will only do one of these.  If you hit it 15 yards further with a non-conforming club it isn't because you played better.  Why would doing the exact same thing but getting a better result - because of something you bought not something you did -  give any satisfaction?  I just do not get this mindset.

Why do people look for the longest driver they can get that is still within the rules?

Because they don't actually know what they are doing?

So people that go in for a driver fitting, and buy the driver they hit the longest, don't know what they are doing?

Most don't get fit.  Most just buy the prettiest, or the one that brags the most or the name brand they see most often.  It's only a small percentage of players who actually get fit.  Then too, what happens in a net in the store is usually far different from what happens out on the course where you only hit driver less than once every 15 minutes or so.

Players who are actually interested in improving their game will usually go for a shaft that is shorter than the max because by hitting the ball closer to the center of the club more often, they actually would hit it farther on average with the shorter shaft.

[phan52]

I would not use a non-conforming club in any of my normal rounds (tournament or otherwise), but I would be tempted to buy one just to use at the occasional scramble event. I am usually one of the longer hitters in my scramble groups and I must say that adding 15-20 yards would be mighty appealing.

Aren't the scramble events "tournaments"? If you are playing against other groups, I would have to say yes.

[Fourputt]

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Originally Posted by Big C

I would not use a non-conforming club in any of my normal rounds (tournament or otherwise), but I would be tempted to buy one just to use at the occasional scramble event. I am usually one of the longer hitters in my scramble groups and I must say that adding 15-20 yards would be mighty appealing.

Aren't the scramble events "tournaments"? If you are playing against other groups, I would have to say yes.

Yep.  Anyone who would use a nonconforming club in a scramble is just joining the ranks of the cheaters that they are always so quick to condemn.

[Big C]

Aren't the scramble events "tournaments"? If you are playing against other groups, I would have to say yes.

They certainly aren't golf tournaments in the sense that they aren't governed by the rules of golf. So the distinction between conforming and non-conforming equipment isn't really as clear, don't you think?

[Fourputt]

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Originally Posted by phan52

Aren't the scramble events "tournaments"? If you are playing against other groups, I would have to say yes.

They certainly aren't golf tournaments in the sense that they aren't governed by the rules of golf. So the distinction between conforming and non-conforming equipment isn't really as clear, don't you think?

In scrambles I've played in, once you select the ball to play, all other rules still apply.  It's not like you throw the entire rule book out the window just because it's a scramble.  You can't select the ball to play, then move it 30 feet to get out from behind a tree, or ignore the penalty stroke for dropping from a water hazard, etc. (and yes, I've seen all 4 players on a team drown their tee shots)

[Big C]

In scrambles I've played in, once you select the ball to play, all other rules still apply.  It's not like you throw the entire rule book out the window just because it's a scramble.  You can't select the ball to play, then move it 30 feet to get out from behind a tree, or ignore the penalty stroke for dropping from a water hazard, etc. (and yes, I've seen all 4 players on a team drown their tee shots)

I agree with everything you posted above, but where do you draw the line in a scramble? Of course even the most poorly organized scrambles will stipulate that you can't move the ball more than a scorecard distance away, or that you can't change the terrain of your lie (can't move from rough to fairway, sand to rough, etc.). But what about the guy who uses a Pinnacle "Distance" ball off the tee and then changes to a Pro-V1 for the approach and all green side shots? Or the talk about "what club are you hitting?" which invariably happens on every par 3? Both of these are against the ROG, but both happen liberally in a scramble. Unless the organizer explicitly states that conforming clubs must be used, how can you draw a line in the sand and call that cheating?

[turtleback]

I agree with everything you posted above, but where do you draw the line in a scramble? Of course even the most poorly organized scrambles will stipulate that you can't move the ball more than a scorecard distance away, or that you can't change the terrain of your lie (can't move from rough to fairway, sand to rough, etc.). But what about the guy who uses a Pinnacle "Distance" ball off the tee and then changes to a Pro-V1 for the approach and all green side shots? Or the talk about "what club are you hitting?" which invariably happens on every par 3? Both of these are against the ROG, but both happen liberally in a scramble. Unless the organizer explicitly states that conforming clubs must be used, how can you draw a line in the sand and call that cheating?

I'm not sure I understand the logic.  Since the rules do not apply in one aspect, all cheating is therefore OK in a scramble?   What about the guy . . .?  He is cheating that is what about him.  And in a scramble the other players are your partners, so advice is OK.

And then everyone complains about the cheating in a scramble?

[colin007]

IMHO playing in a scramble is not playing golf.

[Fourputt]

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Originally Posted by Fourputt

In scrambles I've played in, once you select the ball to play, all other rules still apply.  It's not like you throw the entire rule book out the window just because it's a scramble.  You can't select the ball to play, then move it 30 feet to get out from behind a tree, or ignore the penalty stroke for dropping from a water hazard, etc. (and yes, I've seen all 4 players on a team drown their tee shots)

I agree with everything you posted above, but where do you draw the line in a scramble? Of course even the most poorly organized scrambles will stipulate that you can't move the ball more than a scorecard distance away, or that you can't change the terrain of your lie (can't move from rough to fairway, sand to rough, etc.). But what about the guy who uses a Pinnacle "Distance" ball off the tee and then changes to a Pro-V1 for the approach and all green side shots? Or the talk about "what club are you hitting?" which invariably happens on every par 3? Both of these are against the ROG, but both happen liberally in a scramble. Unless the organizer explicitly states that conforming clubs must be used, how can you draw a line in the sand and call that cheating?

First, it's perfectly within the rules to discuss club selection and strategy with your partners in any sort of a competition.

When proceeding under any rule that allows ball substitution, there is no requirement which says that the same type of ball must be used.  In a scramble, if no condition of the competition says you can't substitute, then I'd guess that you can, since you are not lifting and replacing.   In the scramble I played most often, the selected ball always had to be played as it lay except on the green, without lifting or cleaning.  The other players on the team placed within one scorecard length, and were allowed to clean their balls, or exchange them as desired.  I never changed balls because I played a ball that I liked and understood how it worked for my game, so changing would be a detriment.  That was generally true for just about anyone I was ever teamed with.

There are lots of ways to modify some of the scramble procedures by specifying the requirements in the conditions of the competition, but that still doesn't mean that using illegal clubs or balls is automatically alright, or that the rule book is just tossed.

[Big C]

I'm not sure I understand the logic.  Since the rules do not apply in one aspect, all cheating is therefore OK in a scramble?   What about the guy . . .?  He is cheating that is what about him.  And in a scramble the other players are your partners, so advice is OK.

And then everyone complains about the cheating in a scramble?

Do you think the two actions that I mentioned in my prior post would constitute cheating in a scramble? I don't, but apparently you do (edit: apparently conferring on a club is ok - I stand corrected).

Therefore my logic is that there is no clear de-lineation between what rules of golf apply and which do not. It's up to the organizer to outline the scramble rules, and most organizers don't outline much more than the basics, leaving lots of room for gray. As a result, I think it would be a stretch to call someone a cheater if they elected to use a non conforming club.

[David in FL]

Do you think the two actions that I mentioned in my prior post would constitute cheating in a scramble? I don't, but apparently you do (edit: apparently conferring on a club is ok - I stand corrected). Therefore my logic is that there is no clear de-lineation between what rules of golf apply and which do not. It's up to the organizer to outline the scramble rules, and most organizers don't outline much more than the basics, leaving lots of room for gray. As a result, I think it would be a stretch to call someone a cheater if they elected to use a non conforming club.

By definition, a non-conforming club is disallowed. To use one is cheating. It's really not any more complicated than that.