Tapping to improve your lie

uncbobc · February 2, 2015

I have a friend who at address will repeatedly tap his club I mean we have counted 12-13 taps some days, this will be on every shot even the putter. We all question the ruling on this but don't want to cause hard feelings, But he is now starting to question and comment on what others are doing in their game, so bringing up his tapping behind the ball, is inevitable, Is this improving the lie?

**Lihu** · February 2, 2015

I have a friend who at address will repeatedly tap his club I mean we have counted 12-13 taps some days, this will be on every shot even the putter. We all question the ruling on this but don't want to cause hard feelings, But he is now starting to question and comment on what others are doing in their game, so bringing up his tapping behind the ball, is inevitable, Is this improving the lie?

Welcome to TST.

Is what you are discussing covered by this thread?

**Dormie1360** · February 2, 2015

Is this improving the lie?

Probably in most cases. If the tapping is pushing grass down behind the ball, he is improving his lie. Grounding your club does not mean tapping down behind the ball.

13-2 . Improving Lie, Area of Intended Stance or Swing, or Line of Play

A player must not improve or allow to be improved :

the position or lie of his ball,
the area of his intended stance or swing,
his line of play or a reasonable extension of that line beyond the hole , or
the area in which he is to drop or place a ball,

by any of the following actions:

pressing a club on the ground,
moving, bending or breaking anything growing or fixed (including immovable obstructions and objects defining out of bounds ),
creating or eliminating irregularities of surface ,
removing or pressing down sand, loose soil, replaced divots or other cut turf placed in position, or
removing dew, frost or water.

However, the player incurs no penalty if the action occurs:

in grounding the club lightly when addressing the ball ,
in fairly taking his stance ,
in making a stroke or the backward movement of his club for a stroke and the stroke is made,
in creating or eliminating irregularities of surface within the teeing ground or in removing dew, frost or water from the teeing ground , or
on the putting green in removing sand and loose soil or in repairing damage (Rule 16-1 ).

Exception: Ball in hazard – see Rule 13-4 .

**Lihu** · February 2, 2015

Quote:
Originally Posted by uncbobc

Is this improving the lie?

Probably in most cases. If the tapping is pushing grass down behind the ball, he is improving his lie. Grounding your club does not mean tapping down behind the ball.

13-2. Improving Lie, Area of Intended Stance or Swing, or Line of Play

A player must not improve or allow to be improved:

the position or lie of his ball,
the area of his intended stance or swing,
his line of play or a reasonable extension of that line beyond the hole, or
the area in which he is to drop or place a ball,

by any of the following actions:

pressing a club on the ground,
moving, bending or breaking anything growing or fixed (including immovable obstructions and objects defining out of bounds),
creating or eliminating irregularities of surface,
removing or pressing down sand, loose soil, replaced divots or other cut turf placed in position, or
removing dew, frost or water.

However, the player incurs no penalty if the action occurs:

in grounding the club lightly when addressing the ball,
in fairly taking his stance,
in making a stroke or the backward movement of his club for a stroke and the stroke is made,
in creating or eliminating irregularities of surface within the teeing ground or in removing dew, frost or water from the teeing ground, or
on the putting green in removing sand and loose soil or in repairing damage (Rule 16-1).

Exception: Ball in hazard – see Rule 13-4.

I have a friend who taps the ground behind the ball on every stroke. Not pressing the ground, but tapping like 8 or ten times per stroke. I figured it was just a nervous habit. Doesn't really look like he is changing the lie, though.

**wadesworld** · February 3, 2015

I have a friend who taps the ground behind the ball on every stroke. Not pressing the ground, but tapping like 8 or ten times per stroke. I figured it was just a nervous habit. Doesn't really look like he is changing the lie, though.

If it's causing grass to get mashed down at all, and in the rough it would have to be, it's improving his lie.

**ColinL** · February 3, 2015

I wouldn't contemplate that such repeated action wasn't improving the lie, but would warn the player the first time and penalise if the action were repeated.

**Lihu** · February 3, 2015

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lihu

I have a friend who taps the ground behind the ball on every stroke. Not pressing the ground, but tapping like 8 or ten times per stroke. I figured it was just a nervous habit. Doesn't really look like he is changing the lie, though.

If it's causing grass to get mashed down at all, and in the rough it would have to be, it's improving his lie.

I wouldn't contemplate that such repeated action wasn't improving the lie, but would warn the player the first time and penalise if the action were repeated.

Yeah, I should at least mention it to him the next time we play.

**ColinL** · February 3, 2015

I wouldn't contemplate that such repeated action wasn't improving the lie, but would warn the player the first time and penalise if the action were repeated.

I should clarify that I meant as a referee I would warn and then penalise. As a fellow competitor I could only say to him that what he was doing in my view was improving his lie and liable to penalty.

**minitour** · February 5, 2015

Is your friend Gary Player, by chance?

**RayG** · February 5, 2015

Is your friend Gary Player, by chance?

Or Keegan Bradley... I can't figure why he hasn't been scolded, fined or DQ'd for some of his 'quirky' pre-shot routine...

**Patch** · February 5, 2015

Quote:

Originally Posted by minitour

Is your friend Gary Player, by chance?

Or Keegan Bradley... I can't figure why he hasn't been scolded, fined or DQ'd for some of his 'quirky' pre-shot routine...

Or Sergio Garcia? Seen him mash the grass down several times on TV, usually in the tall stuff around the green. I think the comment at the time was "we all do it" or something to that effect when he was asked about it. This was a long time ago, so perhaps "they all" don't do it anymore. .

**SavvySwede** · February 5, 2015

Quote:
Originally Posted by minitour

Is your friend Gary Player, by chance?

Or Keegan Bradley... I can't figure why he hasn't been scolded, fined or DQ'd for some of his 'quirky' pre-shot routine...

Quote:
Originally Posted by RayG

Quote:
Originally Posted by minitour

Is your friend Gary Player, by chance?

Or Keegan Bradley... I can't figure why he hasn't been scolded, fined or DQ'd for some of his 'quirky' pre-shot routine...

Or Sergio Garcia? Seen him mash the grass down several times on TV, usually in the tall stuff around the green. I think the comment at the time was "we all do it" or something to that effect when he was asked about it. This was a long time ago, so perhaps "they all" don't do it anymore. .

It can be such a fine line between improving your lie and simply testing your lie. I think the Tour and the USGA should make it illegal to ground the club on anything expect tees, fairways, and greens. That way people won't cheat and accuracy/course management will be more rewarded.

**DrvFrShow** · February 5, 2015

I disagree. There is improving your lie, and grounding your club.

Also make sure that when you're clearing debris from around your ball that you don't look at your ball to see if it moves. It could save you from having to self-assess a penalty. If you don't see it, it didn't happen.

**SavvySwede** · February 5, 2015

I disagree. There is improving your lie, and grounding your club.

Also make sure that when you're clearing debris from around your ball that you don't look at your ball to see if it moves. It could save you from having to self-assess a penalty. If you don't see it, it didn't happen.

Grounding the club can unintentionally improve the lie. Yet intention is not apparent.

You second line is just some lame strawman. I'm just applying the same logic behind the rule for not grounding the club in a bunker. In soft sand, any sort of grounding will disturb it and likely improve the lie. It just is not as obvious with grass.

**David in FL** · February 5, 2015

Grounding the club can unintentionally improve the lie. Yet intention is not apparent. You second line is just some lame strawman. I'm just applying the same logic behind the rule for not grounding the club in a bunker. In soft sand, any sort of grounding will disturb it and likely improve the lie. It just is not as obvious with grass.

Intent is not required in order to violate the rule.

**Fourputt** · February 5, 2015

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrvFrShow

I disagree. There is improving your lie, and grounding your club.

Also make sure that when you're clearing debris from around your ball that you don't look at your ball to see if it moves. It could save you from having to self-assess a penalty. If you don't see it, it didn't happen.

Grounding the club can unintentionally improve the lie. Yet intention is not apparent.

You second line is just some lame strawman. I'm just applying the same logic behind the rule for not grounding the club in a bunker. In soft sand, any sort of grounding will disturb it and likely improve the lie. It just is not as obvious with grass.

If the lie is improved by simple grounding of the club, then there is no penalty. If more than just the weight of the club is applied then it is a violation of Rule 13-2.

To DrvFrShow: I'll be watching your ball.

**ColinL** · February 5, 2015

It has to be accepted that legitimate grounding of your club (i.e. no pressing down, just the club's own weight resting on the grass/sand or whatever) can make your lie a little better than it was. But because correct grounding is legitimate, that amount of making your lie better cannot be considered " Improving your lie" in terms of 13-2.

Tapping your club is exerting pressure additional to just the resting weight of the club and whether done knowingly or thoughtlessly in some sort of pre-shot ritual, it is potentially a breach of 13-2. To be an actual breach, there would have to be evidence that the lie had indeed been improved.

**vangator** · February 15, 2015

If we're playing for fun, he can take gouges behind the ball if he wants. The bottom line is, if it could affect my wallet, I'd call him on it.

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