The Tiger Woods/PED Thread

[dsc123]

ummmm...got some bad news for you on this theory of yours...how about Nelson Cruz, Jhonny Peralta, Fancisco Cervelli, and Ryan Braun (who has already been mentioned). Nelson Cruz actually had the best year of his career last year and was named MVP the season AFTER he was suspended for 50 games for PED use in 2013. Also, are you really saying that you believe that Tiger has "definitely" taken steroids because he keeps getting hurt?(thats what I'm assuming you are saying because all you did was give an explanation of what steroids do and you dont really give another reason).  How about the fact that he is just getting old and the wear and tear of hitting ball after ball, day after day, since he was 3 years old has finally worn him down.  Injuries happen to a lot of athletes as they get older but they dont mean that they are taking or have taken steriods.

How sure are you that those guys stopped?

[iacas]

Originally Posted by JGolfer

During his peak years, he sought out treatment from Canadian physician Dr. Anthony Galea.

Define "peak years."

Tiger hasn't won a major since beginning his relationship with Dr. Galea. He only started working with him after his knee surgery after winning the U.S. Open in 2008.

Tiger lives in Florida.

If he had ailments or aches, he had his choice of all the top physicians in his area of Florida, plus any other physician considered tops in their field in the country.

So why would Tiger purposely seek out a Canadian physician best known for his proclivity for dispensing HGH and other illegal PED's to professional athletes?

Perhaps because Galea pioneered PRP and was ahead of his Florida-based peers. Tiger has also traveled to (IIRC) New York and/or Colorado or somewhere because better LASIK and other surgery guys live there. Because Galea was willing to travel and Tiger's mobility was lessened, he had him come to FL.

There's a fine line between "excuses" and coincidence or whatever, but… it's pretty clear that it's POSSIBLE that what I've said above is the entire truth of it, while you seem to leave no room at all for that.

Galea was better known for PRP and treating high-profile athletes. It's not like TW was just going to flip to the yellow pages and look up "PRP Docs in Windermere, FL".

You may recall the days when Tiger dressed in those tight mock turtleneck shirts, showing off his buff physique.

Tiger was never that buff. He was no more buff than Rory is right now, or several other guys on the PGA Tour.

You may recall the days when Tiger routinely outdrove the rest of the field by considerable distances.

You might want to check that stat. I don't know how many times he's led the Tour in driving distance, but it's not many.

I do believe he used HGH during his peak years to increase muscle tone, improve his endurance and reflex time and swing speed, etc...

Some folks think PED's simply increase strength, using the excuse that they don't improve one's swing, but there are a lot of other factors involved, and they improve far more than mere strength.

Your math seems off, though. 2008 was hardly his "peak years" if you're talking about performance.

[jbishop15]

How sure are you that those guys stopped?

Because they are now under more rigorous testing (because of their positive test) and stiffer penalties for being caught.

[Spitfisher]

Because they are now under more rigorous testing (because of their positive test) and stiffer penalties for being caught.

Testing never catches up to the latest designer enhanced drugs. A drug test isn't like a search warrant, its specific. A chemist makes far to much money helping athletes, than he would behind the counter of a Walgreen's. The drugs they make are just to far advanced and ahead of the curve, as soon as a testing method is found, there is another drug undetected. Its your basic cat and mouse game.

Lance Armstrong was caught as a result of blood/urine test that was many, many years older than a newer testing technology, he didn't actually get caught with a smoking gun of drugs, but rather a plastic residue  material that is only found inter-venous bags and a extremely small trace of steroid in a much earlier blood sample. that was undetectable in 1999. It was discovered as suspicious  in 2006

The whole Biogensis investigation which provided a program of designer drugs ( undetectable in a gum and lozenge that could be taken less 1 hour before a game  and disappear hours after the game. Biogensis also provide a schedule to beat any drug test, including unannounced urinalysis.  A previous employee had a laundry list of professional athletes of who the customers were, that's how A-rod got caught.

The cream, ( The clear) which was a topical steroid ointment made by Balco. The feds didn't even know it existed for real at the time that Barry Bonds was being investigated.

There is too much money in professional sports, sometimes the temptation to get some undetectable help is too much for athletes to resist- especially as they get older and begin to deal with post peak age....and faster  injury recovery.

[mad max]

Quote:

Originally Posted by dsc123

How sure are you that those guys stopped?

Because they are now under more rigorous testing (because of their positive test) and stiffer penalties for being caught.

None of the Biogenies players suspended failed a test that I know of.

Edit:  Spitfisher beat me too it with much more information

[Elmer]

ummmm...got some bad news for you on this theory of yours...how about Nelson Cruz, Jhonny Peralta, Fancisco Cervelli, and Ryan Braun (who has already been mentioned). Nelson Cruz actually had the best year of his career last year and was named MVP the season AFTER he was suspended for 50 games for PED use in 2013.

Also, are you really saying that you believe that Tiger has "definitely" taken steroids because he keeps getting hurt?(thats what I'm assuming you are saying because all you did was give an explanation of what steroids do and you dont really give another reason).  How about the fact that he is just getting old and the wear and tear of hitting ball after ball, day after day, since he was 3 years old has finally worn him down.  Injuries happen to a lot of athletes as they get older but they dont mean that they are taking or have taken steriods.

Fancisco Cervelli, had basically the same season before and the same season after. Which makes the fact that he was associated with Biogenesis so shocking. He is a utility, backup catcher. He is lucky to bat .250 and hit a few homeruns.

None of the Biogenies players suspended failed a test that I know of.

Edit:  Spitfisher beat me too it with much more information

None of the Biogenies players suspended failed a test that I know of.

Edit:  Spitfisher beat me too it with much more information

Fancisco Cervelli, had indicated he consulted with them (for a $50K fee) as how to quickly comeback from an injury.

To my knowledge A Rod did not fail a drug test while associated with Biogenisis. His mere associating with them, along with the owners admission to providing PED, and turning over the PED schedule was good enough for a suspension.

I believe he did, but only during that lengthy stretch of his peak years.

I do not believe he's currently using anything, as the Tour likely does testing now.

Here's why I believe he used.

During his peak years, he sought out treatment from Canadian physician Dr. Anthony Galea.

He is widely known for his use of HGH (Human Growth Hormone) for his patients, as well as certain other PED's.

Galea also was known for supplying PED's to certain major league baseball players.

Dr. Galea has since been banned from even practicing in the USA due to the illegal drugs he was using.

One can learn more about Galea's legal troubles/trial online via google if so inclined.

Tiger lives in Florida.

If he had ailments or aches, he had his choice of all the top physicians in his area of Florida, plus any other physician considered tops in their field in the country.

So why would Tiger purposely seek out a Canadian physician best known for his proclivity for dispensing HGH and other illegal PED's to professional athletes?

You may recall the days when Tiger dressed in those tight mock turtleneck shirts, showing off his buff physique.

You may recall how Tiger would talk about training with the Navy Seals and keeping up with them (allegedly how he initially hurt his knee some years back).

You may recall the days when Tiger routinely outdrove the rest of the field by considerable distances.

I do not believe Tiger's current troubles are due to a lack of HGH usage.

I think they are due to age, injury, and a simple lack of confidence in his swing.

I do believe he used HGH during his peak years to increase muscle tone, improve his endurance and reflex time and swing speed, etc...

Some folks think PED's simply increase strength, using the excuse that they don't improve one's swing, but there are a lot of other factors involved, and they improve far more than mere strength.

I do think that Tiger still would have been the best of his era, as he had incredible talent as well as a will to crush his opponents.

I just don't think he would have been quite as good as he was.

Roger Clemens (can interchange with Barry Bonds) never failed a drug test, but his association to Brian McName was all the proof anyone needed to consider him a "user".

McName's other clients admitted to use of PED, McName has admitted to administering PED.

Tiger was a patient of Dr. Galea.

Dr. Galea is known to have supplied PEDs

but maybe Tiger just went to Dr. Galea because he was a good Dr, just like the Rocket went to McName because he was a good trainer.

I believe the term is "guilt by association" .

Tiger has associated with a known PED peddler.

Tiger cheated on his wife

tiger cheats at the game!

Why give this information is it soo hard to fathom that he, knowing of his association with Dr. Galea, would not take PEDs?????

but once again, I have no proof!

So I could be wrong!

[turtleback]

I believe he did, but only during that lengthy stretch of his peak years.

I do not believe he's currently using anything, as the Tour likely does testing now.

Here's why I believe he used.

During his peak years, he sought out treatment from Canadian physician Dr. Anthony Galea.

He is widely known for his use of HGH (Human Growth Hormone) for his patients, as well as certain other PED's.

Galea also was known for supplying PED's to certain major league baseball players.

Dr. Galea has since been banned from even practicing in the USA due to the illegal drugs he was using.

One can learn more about Galea's legal troubles/trial online via google if so inclined.

Tiger lives in Florida.

If he had ailments or aches, he had his choice of all the top physicians in his area of Florida, plus any other physician considered tops in their field in the country.

So why would Tiger purposely seek out a Canadian physician best known for his proclivity for dispensing HGH and other illegal PED's to professional athletes?

You may recall the days when Tiger dressed in those tight mock turtleneck shirts, showing off his buff physique.

You may recall how Tiger would talk about training with the Navy Seals and keeping up with them (allegedly how he initially hurt his knee some years back).

You may recall the days when Tiger routinely outdrove the rest of the field by considerable distances.

I do not believe Tiger's current troubles are due to a lack of HGH usage.

I think they are due to age, injury, and a simple lack of confidence in his swing.

I do believe he used HGH during his peak years to increase muscle tone, improve his endurance and reflex time and swing speed, etc...

Some folks think PED's simply increase strength, using the excuse that they don't improve one's swing, but there are a lot of other factors involved, and they improve far more than mere strength.

I do think that Tiger still would have been the best of his era, as he had incredible talent as well as a will to crush his opponents.

I just don't think he would have been quite as good as he was.

If you read the thread you will see that every one of your points is discussed and dealt with.

As to the statement I highlighted in red, perhaps you can explain to me how, while routinely out driving the field by a considerable distance he never once, during his peak years of 1997-2008

led the Tour in driving distance?  Does that mean that every player who finished ahead of Tiger in driving distance over those years was also a PED user?

[dkolo]

Fancisco Cervelli, had basically the same season before and the same season after. Which makes the fact that he was associated with Biogenesis so shocking. He is a utility, backup catcher. He is lucky to bat .250 and hit a few homeruns.

Fancisco Cervelli, had indicated he consulted with them (for a $50K fee) as how to quickly comeback from an injury.

To my knowledge A Rod did not fail a drug test while associated with Biogenisis. His mere associating with them, along with the owners admission to providing PED, and turning over the PED schedule was good enough for a suspension.

I didn't bother pointing it out the first time because I figured it was a typo, but it keeps coming up: it's Francisco Cervelli, with an R.

Sorry, it's just been driving me nuts, haha. Carry on.

[boogielicious]

Quote:

Originally Posted by JGolfer

I believe he did, but only during that lengthy stretch of his peak years.

I do not believe he's currently using anything, as the Tour likely does testing now.

Here's why I believe he used.

During his peak years, he sought out treatment from Canadian physician Dr. Anthony Galea.

He is widely known for his use of HGH (Human Growth Hormone) for his patients, as well as certain other PED's.

Galea also was known for supplying PED's to certain major league baseball players.

Dr. Galea has since been banned from even practicing in the USA due to the illegal drugs he was using.

One can learn more about Galea's legal troubles/trial online via google if so inclined.

Tiger lives in Florida.

If he had ailments or aches, he had his choice of all the top physicians in his area of Florida, plus any other physician considered tops in their field in the country.

So why would Tiger purposely seek out a Canadian physician best known for his proclivity for dispensing HGH and other illegal PED's to professional athletes?

You may recall the days when Tiger dressed in those tight mock turtleneck shirts, showing off his buff physique.

You may recall how Tiger would talk about training with the Navy Seals and keeping up with them (allegedly how he initially hurt his knee some years back).

You may recall the days when Tiger routinely outdrove the rest of the field by considerable distances.

I do not believe Tiger's current troubles are due to a lack of HGH usage.

I think they are due to age, injury, and a simple lack of confidence in his swing.

I do believe he used HGH during his peak years to increase muscle tone, improve his endurance and reflex time and swing speed, etc...

Some folks think PED's simply increase strength, using the excuse that they don't improve one's swing, but there are a lot of other factors involved, and they improve far more than mere strength.

I do think that Tiger still would have been the best of his era, as he had incredible talent as well as a will to crush his opponents.

I just don't think he would have been quite as good as he was.

If you read the thread you will see that every one of your points is discussed and dealt with.

As to the statement I highlighted in red, perhaps you can explain to me how, while routinely out driving the field by a considerable distance he never once, during his peak years of 1997-2008

led the Tour in driving distance?  Does that mean that every player who finished ahead of Tiger in driving distance over those years was also a PED user?

And add to that, Jack Nicklaus was built like a linebacker when he came in to pro golf, routinely was the farthest driver of the ball and had many back issues later in life.  So I guess he was shooting up too.

[InTheRough]

I didn't bother pointing it out the first time because I figured it was a typo, but it keeps coming up: it's Francisco Cervelli, with an R.

Sorry, it's just been driving me nuts, haha. Carry on.

my bad...typo

Fancisco Cervelli, had basically the same season before and the same season after. Which makes the fact that he was associated with Biogenesis so shocking. He is a utility, backup catcher. He is lucky to bat .250 and hit a few homeruns.

go take another look at his stats.  in 2014 (the year after he was suspended) he had the best season of his career including the only season he's had over a .300 average.  Also never said he was a great player...just another example of a player who has had a better season after they got caught on PEDs

Roger Clemens (can interchange with Barry Bonds) never failed a drug test, but his association to Brian McName was all the proof anyone needed to consider him a "user".

McName's other clients admitted to use of PED, McName has admitted to administering PED.

Tiger was a patient of Dr. Galea.

Dr. Galea is known to have supplied PEDs

but maybe Tiger just went to Dr. Galea because he was a good Dr, just like the Rocket went to McName because he was a good trainer.

Dont remember too much about the details of the whole bonds debacle other than it was a giant mess but the MLB didnt need a failed drug test from the players.   As part of hit plea deal Galea had to give information on the players that he treated and what their treatments were to investigators.

Galea also treated several other high profile athletes who werent ever accused of taking PEDs so just because Tiger worked with Galea doesnt mean he used PEDs.

[Elmer]

go take another look at his stats.  in 2014 (the year after he was suspended) he had the best season of his career including the only season he's had over a .300 average.  Also never said he was a great player...just another example of a player who has had a better season after they got caught on PEDs

Dont remember too much about the details of the whole bonds debacle other than it was a giant mess but the MLB didnt need a failed drug test from the players.   As part of hit plea deal Galea had to give information on the players that he treated and what their treatments were to investigators.

Francisco Cervelli in 2014 played in 49 games, 146 at bats and only 44 hits. While that is his career best I think this is a case of his stats looking better than reality. He still was a back up catcher. And will continue to be a back up.

Where as Ryan Braun went from batting .298 (61 games, 225 AB) to batting .266 in (135 G, 530AB)

Braun is an everyday player, Cervelli is not.

I think Cervelli is an example of a player who did not need it.

I would make the same case for Tiger (if he did use), he was going to be great anyway.

[Gboroman]

And add to that, Jack Nicklaus was built like a linebacker when he came in to pro golf, routinely was the farthest driver of the ball and had many back issues later in life.  So I guess he was shooting up too.

You're right about Jack being built like a linebacker when he came into pro golf.  I agree.  But, Tiger was built like a pine needle when he came into pro golf.

[MSchott]

You're right about Jack being built like a linebacker when he came into pro golf.  I agree.  But, Tiger was built like a pine needle when he came into pro golf.

Are you trying to make some sort of point? Jack and Tiger have very different body types. Jack is far stockier than Woods. Jack's dad played football at tOSU. Woods was a skinny kid and is still a relatively small guy. He's just muscular. You cannot infer anything from this.

[boogielicious]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gboroman

You're right about Jack being built like a linebacker when he came into pro golf.  I agree.  But, Tiger was built like a pine needle when he came into pro golf.

Are you trying to make some sort of point? Jack and Tiger have very different body types. Jack is far stockier than Woods. Jack's dad played football at tOSU. Woods was a skinny kid and is still a relatively small guy. He's just muscular. You cannot infer anything from this.

But he will.

[Gboroman]

Quote:

Originally Posted by MSchott

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gboroman

You're right about Jack being built like a linebacker when he came into pro golf.  I agree.  But, Tiger was built like a pine needle when he came into pro golf.

Are you trying to make some sort of point? Jack and Tiger have very different body types. Jack is far stockier than Woods. Jack's dad played football at tOSU. Woods was a skinny kid and is still a relatively small guy. He's just muscular. You cannot infer anything from this.

But he will.

Just an observation.  Seems like you observed the same thing.  Do you even know what inference means?  Most on here don't.

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by boogielicious

Quote:

Originally Posted by MSchott

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gboroman

You're right about Jack being built like a linebacker when he came into pro golf.  I agree.  But, Tiger was built like a pine needle when he came into pro golf.

Are you trying to make some sort of point? Jack and Tiger have very different body types. Jack is far stockier than Woods. Jack's dad played football at tOSU. Woods was a skinny kid and is still a relatively small guy. He's just muscular. You cannot infer anything from this.

But he will.

Just an observation.  Seems like you observed the same thing.  Do you even know what inference means?  Most on here don't.

Sure - it's drawing a conclusion from what is often insufficient information...  like what this thread is about.

[boogielicious]

Quote:

Originally Posted by boogielicious

Quote:

Originally Posted by MSchott

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gboroman

You're right about Jack being built like a linebacker when he came into pro golf.  I agree.  But, Tiger was built like a pine needle when he came into pro golf.

Are you trying to make some sort of point? Jack and Tiger have very different body types. Jack is far stockier than Woods. Jack's dad played football at tOSU. Woods was a skinny kid and is still a relatively small guy. He's just muscular. You cannot infer anything from this.

But he will.

Just an observation.  Seems like you observed the same thing.  Do you even know what inference means?  Most on here don't.

Do you know what innuendo means?  You are dropping subtle hits suggesting that his changed body from skinny teenager to mature adult suggests PED use.

[Gboroman]

Sure - it's drawing a conclusion from what is often insufficient information...  like what this thread is about.

Correct! Gold star! However, inference can also be defined as the non-logical, but rational means, through observation of patterns of facts, to indirectly see new meanings and contexts for understanding. Of particular use to this application of inference are anomalies and symbols. Inference, in this sense, does not draw conclusions but opens new paths for inquiry . Yes, I copied that definition.

Do you know what innuendo means?  You are dropping subtle hits suggesting that his changed body from skinny teenager to mature adult suggests PED use.

No, I'm not.  You are using what's called Cognitive Bias.