Never Play the Ball Back in Your Stance When Pitching

[mvmac]

I'm sure we've all run into the advice that when we have a short shot around the greens that we should play the ball back in our stance. I heard it the other night when I was watching the NCAA women's golf. The thinking is that playing it off the right foot will help you strike down and ensure solid contact. Only one of those things is true. Solid and predictable contact around the greens, especially when it comes to pitching, comes from having a shallow angle of attack.

When you play the ball back your angle of attack becomes steeper (left pic), you bring the leading edge more into play, and you take loft off the club. We want to be able to utilize the bounce and loft of the club for pitch shots.

Note how the path into the ball is more vertical on the left than on the right. This isn't something we want for pitching because this will encourage the leading edge of the club to dig into the ground. A steep AoA with pitching can result in fat and thin shots. With pitching we want to use the bounce or the glide part of the club. On the right you can see how I have a longer "flat spot" coming into the ball. This engages the bounce which gives me a wider margin of error, I can even hit slightly behind the ball and be fine. I play most of my shots around the green with pitching mechanics. Even when I chip I try to make sure my AoA is shallow .

Quick video comparison. Other than ball position and that I take a divot with the "ball back" swing, notice how my hips have to stall in an effort to "save" the shot. This wasn't something I was consciously trying to do but my pivot stops in order for me to manually throw the club to try and shallow out the strike.

Much different with the second swing where the ball is just inside my left foot. The pivot is gives me speed to work with so I don't need to "force" the wrist angles to come out at the last minute. I'm turning back and through and the ball just gets in the way.

All I'm really trying to do with the second swing is set up with the shaft close to vertical (I always end up with a couple degrees of lean), pivot back and through while brushing the grass. I'm not taking any turf. For more on good pitching technique, go here:

There are some circumstances where you have to play the ball back for a shot around the green, under a tree limb, or out of a muddy lie but for the vast majority of your short shots you'll find a lot more success by playing the ball forward (middle of the stance to off the lead toe) and using the bounce/glide rather than the leading edge.

[iacas]

People typically, for the full swing or short game, move the ball back because they hit the ball fat. And yet this creates a vicious cycle: they hit the ball fat, so they move the ball back. The ball being back encourages them to hit down more AND throw out the wrist angles more because they still want loft. Result? They stick it or hit it fat. So they move the ball back, and the cycle just starts anew.

[nevets88]

Thanks for the writeup and video @mvmac .

If you want to hit a lower trajectory pitch w/the ball center/forward, other than using a lower lofted club, hands more forward?  If so, how much is too much hands forward?

Just out of curiosity, how far did that pitch go, ~30 yards, mostly carry?

[mvmac]

Thanks for the writeup and video @mvmac.

If you want to hit a lower trajectory pitch w/the ball center/forward, other than using a lower lofted club, hands more forward?  If so, how much is too much hands forward?

Just out of curiosity, how far did that pitch go, ~30 yards, mostly carry?

Shot went about 25 yards.

Yep to lower the trajectory you can use a different club, move the ball a little further back, handle slightly more forward, kind of like @iacas does in this pitching video . I'll do all the above to change the trajectory.

If the grip points outside your body I would generally say that is too much lean at address.

[Gunther]

Another myth shattered. I play every pitch off my right foot. I exclusively use a 60° with only 8° of bounce. Is it safe to say the less bounce, the further back it should be?

[mvmac]

Another myth shattered. I play every pitch off my right foot. I exclusively use a 60° with only 8° of bounce. Is it safe to say the less bounce, the further back it should be?

Well the further back you play it the more bounce you effectively take off it, the more the leading edge will come into play. Play it more forward, pivot back and through "brushing" the grass and see what happens.

[Gunther]

Well the further back you play it the more bounce you effectively take off it, the more the leading edge will come into play. Play it more forward, pivot back and through "brushing" the grass and see what happens.

I tried it today. I can't say I was effective at playing it off my left toe but I was able to move it closer to the middle and had some success with it. Thanks for the tip. Very wet here so easy to dig that edge in and sometimes I just need a little nudge to remind me what to do.

[Brakkus]

I would say finesse pitches have been my weakest short game area anything up to 50 yards or so. Realised I was too rigid with that left arm. Softening the elbow joint cured the intermittent contact. Sometimes I would hit complete bricks or shanks to the right. Soft lead elbow allowed the right arm to release on the follow through and now my bounce really slides under the ball. I don't know if Mike agrees but you can still fat the shot up in your stance because there's no give in the arms.

[mvmac]

I don't know if Mike agrees but you can still fat the shot up in your stance because there's no give in the arms.

You can mis-hit with the ball back or forward.

With pitching it's important to keep the body moving, don't stall the pivot. Stalling will cause contact and distance control problems.

[mvmac]

 

[ncates00]

I ALMOST never move ball position, except driver off left foot.  Everything else is off left pec.

[gregsandiego]

On 5/28/2015 at 10:12 AM, mvmac said:

I'm sure we've all run into the advice that when we have a short shot around the greens that we should play the ball back in our stance. I heard it the other night when I was watching the NCAA women's golf. The thinking is that playing it off the right foot will help you strike down and ensure solid contact. Only one of those things is true. Solid and predictable contact around the greens, especially when it comes to pitching, comes from having a shallow angle of attack.

When you play the ball back your angle of attack becomes steeper (left pic), you bring the leading edge more into play, and you take loft off the club. We want to be able to utilize the bounce and loft of the club for pitch shots.

Note how the path into the ball is more vertical on the left than on the right. This isn't something we want for pitching because this will encourage the leading edge of the club to dig into the ground. A steep AoA with pitching can result in fat and thin shots. With pitching we want to use the bounce or the glide part of the club. On the right you can see how I have a longer "flat spot" coming into the ball. This engages the bounce which gives me a wider margin of error, I can even hit slightly behind the ball and be fine. I play most of my shots around the green with pitching mechanics. Even when I chip I try to make sure my AoA is shallow .

Quick video comparison. Other than ball position and that I take a divot with the "ball back" swing, notice how my hips have to stall in an effort to "save" the shot. This wasn't something I was consciously trying to do but my pivot stops in order for me to manually throw the club to try and shallow out the strike.

Much different with the second swing where the ball is just inside my left foot. The pivot is gives me speed to work with so I don't need to "force" the wrist angles to come out at the last minute. I'm turning back and through and the ball just gets in the way.

All I'm really trying to do with the second swing is set up with the shaft close to vertical (I always end up with a couple degrees of lean), pivot back and through while brushing the grass. I'm not taking any turf. For more on good pitching technique, go here:

There are some circumstances where you have to play the ball back for a shot around the green, under a tree limb, or out of a muddy lie but for the vast majority of your short shots you'll find a lot more success by playing the ball forward (middle of the stance to off the lead toe) and using the bounce/glide rather than the leading edge.

Thanks for the tutorial. I remember searching YouTube and finding a lot of conflicting advice. I basically just center the ball and think of it as a "mini-swing". Some of the second order tips (shift weight, stance, open face etc etc) just confuse the hell out of me.

[SmiterofPV1x]

Very informative. I'm learning a ton here in short order, I like! For me personally my "bad" pitches are when I don't commit to the shot, ie decelerate the club. Doesn't matter a ton where in my stance I play it but if I want to hit it fat, it's simple: don't fully commit to the shot. This year I've taken to hitting pitches with my stock set GW. It's big and chunky (Nike Vapor Speed). As a high ball hitter, I can hit almost every wedge shot with it. It's 48* I think. The only other wedge I carry outside of my set PW is a 52*. It's perfectly gapped at 10 yards less than my GW and I truly can hit every wedge shot with it. It's a TM RAC Tp model of some sort.  I can hit it straight up if needed or hit a knockdown from 120 into the wind. Any more loft than that and I run the risk of pop-ups. I sometimes carry it's twin at 56* but I only use it out of bunkers. Since I don't plan to play out of bunkers, it doesn't see much action (that and I have to lose my DI or my 4h to make room). 

[onthehunt526]

Ok, @mvmac I get what you are saying. I know this is a two-year-old thread. But then if I play my pitches and wedge shots forward, why in the hell can't I hit a wedge? Stance too wide maybe?

[billchao]

4 hours ago, onthehunt526 said:

Ok, @mvmac I get what you are saying. I know this is a two-year-old thread. But then if I play my pitches and wedge shots forward, why in the hell can't I hit a wedge? Stance too wide maybe?

Take some good videos and post them in your swing thread.

[ncates00]

6 hours ago, onthehunt526 said:

Ok, @mvmac I get what you are saying. I know this is a two-year-old thread. But then if I play my pitches and wedge shots forward, why in the hell can't I hit a wedge? Stance too wide maybe?

Without details my first guess would be you're used to the low point being further back due to the back ball position.

[onthehunt526]

25 minutes ago, ncates00 said:

Without details my first guess would be you're used to the low point being further back due to the back ball position.

I play everything from pretty much just under my left armpit. Or maybe a smidge further back than that.

@billchao between working 11 out of 13 closing grill shifts and such, I can try to get some video done. Then maybe I can get a drill or two. Craig and I have worked on it however.

[rehmwa]

mv - THANKS for the reminder.  This is me the last 3 rounds I've played and I fell into the 'viscious cycle' trap.  sigh