Unplayable Lie- How would you play this one?

[bkuehn1952]

You probably wouldn't be able to. As soon as you take that unplayable lie drop, the new lie is your reference point now. You just can't say, "Oh I dropped 3 times, I'm going back to the tee." Once you drop your ball is now in play, even if it goes into an unplayable lie.

Someone with an exact handle on the Rules should jump in here.  I believe one is always allowed to return to the tee, incurring an additional penalty plus whatever number of strokes (including penalties) accumulated up to that point.

[saevel25]

Someone with an exact handle on the Rules should jump in here.  I believe one is always allowed to return to the tee, incurring an additional penalty plus whatever number of strokes (including penalties) accumulated up to that point.

If I actually looked at the rules for the answers. Though mine did seem logical. I was incorrect in my statement.

28/6.5

Player Deems Ball Unplayable a Second Time and Wishes to Proceed Under Stroke and Distance After Dropping a Ball Under Other Unplayable Option

Q.A player plays a stroke from Point A to Point B. The player deems his ball unplayable and proceeds under either Rule 28b or 28c. After dropping under penalty of one stroke, the ball comes to rest at Point C. The player deems his ball unplayable for a second time and wishes to proceed under Rule 28a, playing from Point A. Is this permissible?

A.Yes. The player may play from Point A because he did not make a stroke at the ball from either Point B or Point C. Point A was the spot from which the original ball was last played. The player would incur a total of two penalty strokes.

[MEfree]

Someone with an exact handle on the Rules should jump in here.  I believe one is always allowed to return to the tee, incurring an additional penalty plus whatever number of strokes (including penalties) accumulated up to that point.

[quote name="saevel25" url="/t/82589/unplayable-lie-how-would-you-play-this-one/18#post_1153984"] If I actually looked at the rules for the answers. Though mine did seem logical. I was incorrect in my statement.  [/quote] Saevel found the correct ruling. However, you lose your option to return to the tee if you actually make (or attempt) a stroke at the ball after it has left the teeing ground. That is one reason Kevin Na made that 16 a few years back- once he swung at it, going back to the tee was no longer an option even if he realized that he should have done that in the first place. 28/5 Regression Under Unplayable Ball Rule Q.A player plays a stroke from Point A to Point B. Point B is in an area from which it is very difficult to extricate the ball. The player considers deeming the ball unplayable but this would result in a stroke-and-distance penalty (Rule 28a). Dropping behind under Rule 28b is impossible due to a boundary fence and dropping within two club-lengths under Rule 28c is not feasible because it would require a considerable number of such drops to escape the area. The player plays from Point B and moves the ball a few feet to Point C, where the ball is clearly unplayable. Under Rule 28a, may the player: (a) deem the ball unplayable at Point C and drop a ball under penalty of one stroke at Point B, and then (b) deem the ball unplayable at Point B and drop a ball, under an additional penalty of one stroke, at Point A? A.No. Under Rule 28a, the player would be entitled to drop a ball only at the place from which he played his last stroke (Point B). In the circumstances, the player's only alternative is to invoke Rule 28c a sufficient number of times (starting at Point C and dropping the ball sideways within two club-lengths each time) to get the ball into a playable position.

[saevel25]

In the circumstances, the player's only alternative is to invoke Rule 28c a sufficient number of times (starting at Point C and dropping the ball sideways within two club-lengths each time) to get the ball into a playable position.

Ouch

That is when you wish you were playing match play. Just tell your opponent they won and move to the next hole ;)

[Jon Hoover]

I'd re-tee because if you took the unplayable lie drop and that rolled unplayable again you'd have to take another penalty to drop again.

Q. A player deemed his ball unplayable and, under Rule 28c, dropped his ball within two club-lengths of the spot where it lay. The ball came to rest in the original position or another position at which the ball was unplayable. What is the ruling?

A. The ball was in play when it was dropped - Rule 20-4. Thus, if the ball came to rest in the original position, the player must again invoke the unplayable ball Rule, incurring an additional penalty stroke, unless he decides to play the ball as it lies. The same applies if the ball came to rest in another position at which it was unplayable, assuming that the ball did not roll into a position covered by Rule 20-2c, in which case re-dropping without penalty would be required.

[DrvFrShow]

In the circumstances, the player's only alternative is to invoke Rule 28c a sufficient number of times (starting at Point C and dropping the ball sideways within two club-lengths each time) to get the ball into a playable position.

That is when you pick up, take your ESC score for the hole, and move on. See, this way you don't hold up play.

[turtleback]

Quote:

Originally Posted by MEfree

In the circumstances, the player's only alternative is to invoke Rule 28c a sufficient number of times (starting at Point C and dropping the ball sideways within two club-lengths each time) to get the ball into a playable position.

That is when you pick up, take your ESC score for the hole, and move on. See, this way you don't hold up play.

It is a tournament.  You still need to have a score or you are just, essentially, DQing yourself.  You can only post the ESC score for handicap purposes, not for tournament score purposes.  And even in a non-tournament round, if you are playing, say a $5 stroke play nassau against someone, you are, by rights, forfeiting all the bets by not finishing the hole.

[DrvFrShow]

See in a tournament I would have gone back and re-hit from the get go.

I don't make $2000/wk so I don't get into $5/stroke play nassau against someone.

[Fourputt]

See in a tournament I would have gone back and re-hit from the get go.

I don't make $2000/wk so I don't get into $5/stroke play nassau against someone.

A $5 Nassau can only cost you $15 max if it's just played straight without presses.  I never made $2000 a week, or anything even close (I think the best I ever approached was about $13/hour), but I played a few $1 skins and the like where $18-$20 was about the most you could lose on your worst possible day.  More normally, my gambling was more in the $.25 skins where a bad day would lose $5.  And games like that were played at most once a week, not every round.

[Missouri Swede]

Another example of knowing the rules and using them to your advantage:  I know approximately where my first ball is (somewhere in the bushes over there) and I know exactly where my provisional is (perfect spot) so I can make a judgment call as to how likely my ball is to be found in-bounds and playable, and if I determine it's unlikely, then I just won't bother to look for it AT ALL.  In which case, I can play the provisional.

I think you could also just do a cursory search and only look at areas where if you were to find it then you'd be able to play it.  I think, but I'm definitely not sure how close to a grey area you might be here.  You know?  Just walk over there and look in the open areas, but not directly under the bush from which you know you can't play anyway.

Slightly off topic (but not much): I was curious about how "grey" it was, so I looked a couple decisions that seemed relevant:

27-2b/1

Continuation of Play with Provisional Ball Without Searching for Original Ball

Q.At a par-3 hole, a player hits his tee shot into dense woods. He then hits a provisional ball which comes to rest near the hole. In view of the position of the provisional ball, the player does not wish to find his original ball. He does not search for it and walks directly towards his provisional ball to continue play with it. His opponent (or fellow-competitor) believes it would be beneficial to him if the original ball were found. May the opponent (or fellow-competitor) search for the player's ball?

A.Yes. In equity (Rule 1-4), he may search for five minutes provided that in the meantime the player does not play a stroke with the provisional ball, it being nearer the hole than the place where the original ball is likely to be. The player is entitled to play such a stroke. If he does, the original ball is then lost under Rule 27-2b and further search for it would serve no purpose. In match play, if the player so proceeds and his provisional ball is closer to the hole than his opponent's ball, his opponent may recall the stroke (Rule 10-1c). However, recalling the stroke would not change the status of the original ball, which was lost when the provisional ball was played out of turn. See also Decision 27-2c/2.

27-2c/2

Ball Believed to Be Original Found; Player Wishes to Ignore It and Continue Play with Provisional Ball

Q.At a par-3 hole, a player plays his tee shot into a heavy thicket. Since his ball may be lost, he hits a provisional ball that comes to rest near the hole. In the circumstances, it is advantageous to the player not to find his original ball. Accordingly, the player does not search for the original ball and walks directly toward his provisional ball. While the player is on his way to his provisional ball, a ball believed to be his original is found. The player is advised that his original ball may have been found. May the player ignore this ball and continue play with the provisional ball?

A.No. The player must inspect the ball that has been found and, if it is the player's original ball, he must continue play with it (or proceed under the unplayable ball Rule). The provisional ball must be abandoned - Rule 27-2c. See also Decision 27-2b/1.

[wadesworld]

There's nothing which requires you to search for your ball.  If you head straight to your provisional and play it (assuming it's at the spot where your ball is likely to be or closer to the hole), then your original is by definition, lost.  However, if someone (such as your opponent) finds your original before you hit your provisional again, then the provisional must be immediately abandoned and you'll have to deal with your original, as long as it's in-bounds.

[sjduffers]

There's nothing which requires you to search for your ball.  If you head straight to your provisional and play it (assuming it's at the spot where your ball is likely to be or closer to the hole), then your original is by definition, lost.  However, if someone (such as your opponent) finds your original before you hit your provisional again, then the provisional must be immediately abandoned and you'll have to deal with your original, as long as it's in-bounds.

All true, but if your opponent does search despite your obvious intention to not search, he is also a dick (a term not condoned or even mentioned in the RoG)!  After all, since you haven't hole out your provisional (or there would be no discussion), you already incurred a stroke and distance penalty and are at best making a 4 on a par 3, where this jackass is trying to get you to get a worse score still...

In equity, of course (as he might say).

[DrvFrShow]

Here's a question. I've hit my original ball over there in the brush and want to ignore it. In the interest of pace of play I hit a provisional ball off the tee and planted it dead in the middle of the fairway. My first shot is going to have really sucky position. My provisional would be hitting 4.

Now what if I deemed the first ball "unplayable," and knowing that taking drops would require several two club length drops to get anywhere near a playable ball, I wanted to use my provisional as the S&D; option instead in the interest of saving time? You can always take S&D; on any shot. Hitting 4 beats hitting say 6 or 7.

[saevel25]

Here's a question. I've hit my original ball over there in the brush and want to ignore it. In the interest of pace of play I hit a provisional ball off the tee and planted it dead in the middle of the fairway. My first shot is going to have really sucky position. My provisional would be hitting 4.

Now what if I deemed the first ball "unplayable," and knowing that taking drops would require several two club length drops to get anywhere near a playable ball, I wanted to use my provisional as the S&D; option instead in the interest of saving time? You can always take S&D; on any shot. Hitting 4 beats hitting say 6 or 7.

I do not believe there is a penalty for actually not looking for the lost ball. If you are for certain it is lost and want to just play your provisional then that is fine. If it is not totally certain than your competitor has the right to be sure it is lost. Which would require you to actually search for the ball.

27/13

Refusal to Identify Ball

Q.A player purposely refuses to identify a ball as his. What can the opponent or a fellow-competitor do in such a case?

A.An opponent or fellow-competitor has the right to be satisfied about the identification of a player's ball.

If a player has dishonestly not identified his ball, the opponent or fellow-competitor may refer the dispute to the Committee (Rule 34-3). In such a case, the Committee would be justified in imposing a penalty of disqualification under Rule 33-7.

I would say in your scenario, which sounds like you are not certain it is lost, but could be in an unplayable lie. Then you have a due diligence to find the ball and try to play it or take the unplayable lie.

[Golfingdad]

I do not believe there is a penalty for actually not looking for the lost ball. If you are for certain it is lost and want to just play your provisional then that is fine. If it is not totally certain than your competitor has the right to be sure it is lost. Which would require you to actually search for the ball.  I would say in your scenario, which sounds like you are not certain it is lost, but could be in an unplayable lie. Then you have a due diligence to find the ball and try to play it or take the unplayable lie.

No, refusal to identify is referring to ball that has been found. She's more than entitled to never look for it and so long as no (jerk) FC decides to look for and find one then she's free to completely ignore it.

[turtleback]

Here's a question. I've hit my original ball over there in the brush and want to ignore it. In the interest of pace of play I hit a provisional ball off the tee and planted it dead in the middle of the fairway. My first shot is going to have really sucky position. My provisional would be hitting 4.

Now what if I deemed the first ball "unplayable," and knowing that taking drops would require several two club length drops to get anywhere near a playable ball, I wanted to use my provisional as the S&D; option instead in the interest of saving time? You can always take S&D; on any shot. Hitting 4 beats hitting say 6 or 7.

I am assuming that in the second paragraph the ball has been found?  If so then no, under the rules you cannot use your provisional, you have to go back and re-hit, if that is the option you are taking for the unplayable.  You can only use the provisional if the original shot was OB or lost.

But let's do  thought experiment and say it was allowed.  But then say you hit your provisional into the weeds as well.  Now, would you make the same decision?  Of course not.  The rules do not allow you to have a choice between which of 2 found balls to play.  It is as simple as that, and this is one of those fundamental principles underlying the ROG.

If you are really sure you do not want to play the original ball from where you hit it, then re-tee and do not designate it as a provisional.  Now you are lying 3 wherever that second shot ends up.  But you cannot have your cake and eat.  You cannot wait to see if you will "count" your re-teed shot until after you see if you hit a good shot.

Again, though, what is done in a casual round might be acceptable for handicap purposes, but it is not for competition purposes.

[DrvFrShow]

So knowing the course and where the first shot went, and knowing the conditions up there, can I straight away declare the first shot unplayable and hit a second ball? I'd probably hit my 5 iron off the tee for the second shot and that 95% of the time will be on the fairway 180 yds out. The reason I'd flare the shot wide like that in the first place would be fatigue and that means I'm not getting the driver turned over fast enough so I'd go with something I know I can hit even if it meant hitting a 6 iron onto the green instead of a 8 or 9 iron. I'm looking at DB anyway or worse at that point anyway. In a tournament I want to minimize the damage.

If I flared the 5 iron, the hole is shot, but the 5 iron isn't going up that far and will probably leave me with a playable lie in the rough. That has been my experience.

[Asheville]

So knowing the course and where the first shot went, and knowing the conditions up there, can I straight away declare the first shot unplayable and hit a second ball? I'd probably hit my 5 iron off the tee for the second shot and that 95% of the time will be on the fairway 180 yds out. The reason I'd flare the shot wide like that in the first place would be fatigue and that means I'm not getting the driver turned over fast enough so I'd go with something I know I can hit even if it meant hitting a 6 iron onto the green instead of a 8 or 9 iron. I'm looking at DB anyway or worse at that point anyway. In a tournament I want to minimize the damage.

If I flared the 5 iron, the hole is shot, but the 5 iron isn't going up that far and will probably leave me with a playable lie in the rough. That has been my experience.

At any time, you may proceed under the stroke and distance provision of Rule 27-1 .