2016 Ryder Cup Discussion Thread

[newtogolf]

1 hour ago, boogielicious said:

Nah. We're just like family! We love each other!  Although, it is way calmer now than it was is the 70s through 90s.

I don't understand why "fans" think it is smart to heckle a professional athlete. To me, it is dumb. The Ryder Cup players are phenomenal golfers. No "fan" in the crowd is in the same solar system in ability. It says more about the inadequacy of the fan than the golfer.

Heckling a hockey player is moronic. The only think dumber would be heckling an MMA fighter. 

You heckle players to get in their head and hope they perform worse so your team or favorite golfer can win.  I don't think hecklers believe they are better athletes than those they heckle they just want to throw them off their game.  

[Valleygolfer]

59 minutes ago, boogielicious said:

Nah. We're just like family! We love each other!  Although, it is way calmer now than it was is the 70s through 90s.

I don't understand why "fans" think it is smart to heckle a professional athlete. To me, it is dumb. The Ryder Cup players are phenomenal golfers. No "fan" in the crowd is in the same solar system in ability. It says more about the inadequacy of the fan than the golfer.

Heckling a hockey player is moronic. The Sameonly think dumber would be heckling an MMA fighter. 

Same people that yell baba booey, they think they are cool and funny.

[boogielicious]

1 hour ago, iacas said:

You don't?

It has nothing to do with their relative abilities.

I didn't mean that they heckle because they feel inadequate. I meant that I've always found it odd that people with lesser skills feel the need to heckle. Or that they think their heckling will affect a professional athlete. It can happen sometimes, but generally it can empower the athlete. Rory fed off it.

David Ortiz wrote a thank you letter to Yankee fans. It was quite nice actually. But he did say that the boos made him play better. When they booed him, he wanted to get a hit or HR to quite them.

[iacas]

50 minutes ago, boogielicious said:

I didn't mean that they heckle because they feel inadequate. I meant that I've always found it odd that people with lesser skills feel the need to heckle. Or that they think their heckling will affect a professional athlete. It can happen sometimes, but generally it can empower the athlete. Rory fed off it.

People with higher skills are not in the audience.

It does affect the athletes. Plus it adds to the enjoyment of the game for (some) spectators.

http://m.mlb.com/video/topic/58922774/v31066941/nl-wc-pirates-fans-cause-cueto-to-drop-the-ball

Did he drop the ball because of the cheering? Probably not. But look for this video on YouTube and you're going to find it under "get in Cueto's head" or "cause Cueto to drop the ball" and other similar things. And the fans cheered when he dropped the ball.

You cheer your guys and jeer the other guys. It's got nothing to do with your ability level. Hell, consider at the sandlot level how many times you'll yell "SWING!" at the kid batting, or how much the dugout will yap at the opposing pitcher…

[Hazsa]

On 10/4/2016 at 3:52 AM, natureboy said:

 

Agreed - see video below. Fans at American football and baseball games toss a lot of profanity and insults. Difference with golf is there's a lot less distance between the crowd and the players. I want to see Ryder Cup 'stay classy', because it would be stupid to push the fans way back let alone have big fences (or moats even) to keep fans back. Golf crowds and the venues are different so you've got to draw a sharper line on behavior.

Haha. So many American 'soccer' experts here. Large metal fences have been out of the game for 30+ years now, as has hooliganism to a large extent. Never seen a moat either. 

It doesn't make sense as a comparison, they're just so different. Even playing football in the local league I barely hear a thing coming from people watching. I'm too busy for that. If im playing golf I hear a pin drop and everything is a distraction. 

[natureboy]

1 hour ago, Hazsa said:

Haha. So many American 'soccer' experts here. Large metal fences have been out of the game for 30+ years now, as has hooliganism to a large extent. Never seen a moat either. 

It doesn't make sense as a comparison, they're just so different. Even playing football in the local league I barely hear a thing coming from people watching. I'm too busy for that. If im playing golf I hear a pin drop and everything is a distraction. 

Hardly an expert, but aware of the image. It was a big problem for a while - now it takes place mostly outside the stadiums as I guess these lunkheads still want to watch the match. The moats were a South America reference.

Below is from an article about 2016 violence at an away game in France. Clearly instigated by Russian agent provacateurs. They've been cleverly tweaking this population  / demographic in England (and other countries) for some time and the predictable response (Brexit) perfectly suits their strategic goals of undermining U.K. / European cooperation and creating distractions in order to help blunt coordinated focus / support related to Ukraine or Syria.

Quote

England supporters have brought fresh shame on themselves and have undone much of the hard work that has gone into changing their image in the last 16 years. Although only a tiny minority came to fight, there was enough drunken, boorish behaviour on show to inflame tensions. That does not excuse what befell them but did they really expect chants of “No surrender to the IRA, “10 German bombers”, “If it wasn’t for the English, you’d be krauts” and “F--- off Europe, we’re all voting out” to go down well? 

As far as golf, I completely agree about quiet during a player's routine unless they egg the crowd on like Bubba (like Waste Management par 3). Noise after the shot is hit is to be expected. No abusive (profanity) language tolerated at any time would be my preference.

[Valleygolfer]

1 hour ago, Hazsa said:

Haha. So many American 'soccer' experts here. Large metal fences have been out of the game for 30+ years now, as has hooliganism to a large extent. Never seen a moat either. 

It doesn't make sense as a comparison, they're just so different. Even playing football in the local league I barely hear a thing coming from people watching. I'm too busy for that. If im playing golf I hear a pin drop and everything is a distraction. 

Funny how the European perspective of fans encompasses all of us and our perspective of your fans is similar, yet we both argue it is unlike the persona.

Golf fans are different in both regions but we have to admit that sporting crowds get a bit barbaric no matter what country you are in.

[nevets88]

Interesting read from The Economist w/input from Mark Broadie. Gist basically is it can go either way.

A thumping win in a highly unpredictable tournament [Economist]

Quote

The Ryder Cup, it turns out, is highly prone to randomness. The singles matches are easiest to predict since they involve a straight head-to-head contest. You will need luck to pick a winner though. Since 1987, when the world rankings system was first introduced, the better-rated player has won just 52% of the available singles points. Perhaps these rankings are a better indicator of form than class. But experience—defined here as the number of points earned in previous Ryder Cups—also seems to give only a slight advantage. In the same period, the player with the better past record collected just 54% of the available points.

http://www.economist.com/blogs/gametheory/2016/10/ryder-cup

Rory McIlroy urges European fans not to 'retaliate' in 2018 Ryder Cup [Telegraph]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/golf/2016/10/03/rory-mcilroy-urges-european-fans-not-to-retaliate-in-2018-ryder/

[iacas]

40 minutes ago, nevets88 said:

Interesting read from The Economist w/input from Mark Broadie. Gist basically is it can go either way.

A thumping win in a highly unpredictable tournament [Economist]

http://www.economist.com/blogs/gametheory/2016/10/ryder-cup

Rory McIlroy urges European fans not to 'retaliate' in 2018 Ryder Cup [Telegraph]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/golf/2016/10/03/rory-mcilroy-urges-european-fans-not-to-retaliate-in-2018-ryder/

See? Exactly what I was saying with the coin flipping analogy. You can get runs where heads comes up quite often, and those lead to Europeans winning, or the U.S. winning in streaks.

I'll do 28 right now from https://www.random.org/coins/:

By my count…

Heads (European): 18
Tails (USA): 10

That includes runs of 4 and 5 in a row too. Whether you apply this to the 50/50 nature of 18 Ryder Cups, or the nature of 28 matches played in a single Ryder Cup, it's pretty obvious that small things and random chance can play a big role in the outcome.

[natureboy]

9 hours ago, nevets88 said:

Interesting read from The Economist w/input from Mark Broadie. Gist basically is it can go either way.

A thumping win in a highly unpredictable tournament [Economist]

http://www.economist.com/blogs/gametheory/2016/10/ryder-cup

Not sure if was in another thread, but goes to the argument between Duval and Chamblee.

Duval was absolutely right that a putt here a chip-in there makes a big difference. The less 'prepared' approach U.S. squads had in the past likely contributed somewhat to top U.S. players under-performing their rankings over many matches some from poorly conceived pairings, some from loss of momentum / confidence (which can have a real human emotional effect in the event vs. a coin toss) as well as 'distractions'. But even with a few more wins in pairings, I think Phil and Tiger still under-performed. So IMO they were both right, and the small tweaks from the new approach will help shave the slight edge the European team has enjoyed for a while.

[newtogolf]

I spent months in management training while working for Xerox during their Malcom Baldridge National Quality Award years. While most of it was feel good, how to make a meeting last 30 minutes longer than it had to type stuff there was some really good sessions on team building.  Teams produce best when there is strong team chemistry and a true sense of obligation is developed between teammates.  

Golfers, by the nature of their sport, are lone wolves, they typically play for themselves and their family, with no sense of team beyond their caddie, swing coach, etc.  Compounding the problem is pro golfers are conditioned to try to play their best when the most amount of money or prestige is on the line.  

I believe randomness and bad breaks all factor into who wins, at the core, given the lack of money, in order to play their best, the pro golfers need to feel a sense of team and obligation to the team.  I don't know if it's coincidence or not but this years highly integrated and empowered team and Aziinger's Pods produced winning Ryder Cup teams and seemed to have a greater sense of team than our losing Ryder Cup teams.  

[dsc123]

Imagine what the Euros would say about Canadian fans....http://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/17723040/blue-jays-apologize-fan-throwing-beverage-orioles-outfielder-al-wild-card-game

[Lastpick]

I'm not positive about what is appropriate fan behavior at the Ryder Cup.  I don't agree with singing "Sweet Caroline" as that is attacking Rory on a very personal level.  Don't agree with cursing at players.  Cheering for shots both good and bad is okay in my book.  I would like to see a little higher level of golf etiquette from the crowd(quiet while a player is making a shot).  I  am referring to quiet from the immediate crowd on hand.

One thing that I don't agree with and wish people would stop doing is the constant desire to touch a competitor.  Wanting to slap hands or give the golfer a pat on the back.  Just wouldn't want that going on if I were a golfer at that level.

[newtogolf]

5 hours ago, Lastpick said:

I'm not positive about what is appropriate fan behavior at the Ryder Cup.  I don't agree with singing "Sweet Caroline" as that is attacking Rory on a very personal level.  Don't agree with cursing at players.  Cheering for shots both good and bad is okay in my book.  I would like to see a little higher level of golf etiquette from the crowd(quiet while a player is making a shot).  I  am referring to quiet from the immediate crowd on hand.

One thing that I don't agree with and wish people would stop doing is the constant desire to touch a competitor.  Wanting to slap hands or give the golfer a pat on the back.  Just wouldn't want that going on if I were a golfer at that level.

I don't get that either, has to be annoying to high five the entire gallery.  

[Valleygolfer]

9 hours ago, Lastpick said:

One thing that I don't agree with and wish people would stop doing is the constant desire to touch a competitor.  Wanting to slap hands or give the golfer a pat on the back.  Just wouldn't want that going on if I were a golfer at that level.

I agree and I also do not get "autographs." Unless it is on a check written to me why bother.

http://www.golf.com/tour-and-news/martin-kaymer-says-insults-us-fans-were-shocking

I have to say I could care less how European fans behave but I do not appreciate the disrespectful behavior by the select American fans that voiced their ignorance. I just don't understand why people think that it is okay to disrespect another person or think they better than another because of their location in the world. Personal assaults, yelling ignorant radio show words and any other dip shit behavior is flat out embarrassing for our country. I know I stated that sporting events get rowdy but this is getting ridiculous.

[natureboy]

10 hours ago, Lastpick said:

I'm not positive about what is appropriate fan behavior at the Ryder Cup.  I don't agree with singing "Sweet Caroline" as that is attacking Rory on a very personal level.  Don't agree with cursing at players.  Cheering for shots both good and bad is okay in my book.  I would like to see a little higher level of golf etiquette from the crowd(quiet while a player is making a shot).  I  am referring to quiet from the immediate crowd on hand.

One thing that I don't agree with and wish people would stop doing is the constant desire to touch a competitor.  Wanting to slap hands or give the golfer a pat on the back.  Just wouldn't want that going on if I were a golfer at that level.

Part of the problem at Hazeltine may have been the total crowd size. If they were 20-deep it was probably hard to tell from the back row when a player was stepping into the shot. So you get mostly quiet with a little murmur from the fringes (and other holes).

See below on touching players.

5 hours ago, newtogolf said:

I don't get that either, has to be annoying to high five the entire gallery.  

I agree. Leave the high-fives to the little kids. Leave them alone. Let them play golf.

Autographs I understand as a 'memento' of your favorite player (bigger deal for kids) as a sort of 'touchstone'.

[70sSanO]

10 hours ago, Lastpick said:

I don't agree with singing "Sweet Caroline" as that is attacking Rory on a very personal level.

I hadn't heard of that incident.  Actually pretty funny.  Considering that he is marrying someone else I would hardly think it would bother him.  He has moved on.  If it did he better re-think his current engagement.

Now it may have bothered Caroline, but I doubt it bothered Rory.

John

Edited October 7, 2016 by 70sSanO

[nevets88]

Yeah, not an easy job.