Does Zach Johnson move up a tier now...?

[misty_mountainhop]

Yep. I think he does. He's won two Majors now and on completely different courses in completely different conditions. One could be luck or an abnormally hot week but two? Far less likely to be luck and he certainly beat a great last round leader board at St. Andrews this week.

[phan52]

Not a huge fan, but Zach is a survivor who had to bust his butt to just get on the Tour, working his way up the hard way through the mini-tours. He beat Tiger in his prime at Augusta and that was a pretty gutsy performance against a stellar field at St. Andrews. I’d still like to see him get to 15 wins, but I wouldn’t squawk if he made the HOF without that.

[RiddleMeThis]

I’d still like to see him get to 15 wins, but I wouldn’t squawk if he made the HOF without that.

Agreed.  He's a nice guy and clearly has some big wins.  Hopefully he pulls a few more wins while he's playing this well.

[MEfree]

A second major definitely moves you up a tier BUT there are some multiple major winners who don't necessarily belong in the HOF- Daly and Angel Cabrera come to mind among current players and, as was referred to earlier, Andy North didn't do that much other than his majors. PGA Tour Stats Paddy Harrington EVENTS 1ST 2ND 3RD TOP 10 TOP 25 MADE CUT CUT WD MONEY 248 6 6 2 53 99 183 65 -- $23,814,711 Zach Johnson EVENTS 1ST 2ND 3RD TOP 10 TOP 25 MADE CUT CUT WD MONEY 307 12 9 10 65 139 251 54 2 $37,558,906

[Mr. Desmond]

A second major did wonders for O'Meara ... and Zach is in that league. He may end up with another major and 8 more wins by his late '40's - that's HOF material.

Heck, O'Meara made the cut in the Open... but went +2 in the final round to plummet down the board.

[Golfingdad]

I wonder what the criteria should be for the GHOF.

If you look at total wins, top 10% is 25 PGA Tour wins and over. Top 10% for majors is 3 wins and over.

I'd say it should be something like, if 1 or none majors at least 25 wins or more. If you have 2-3 majors then that overall wins drops to 20. If you have 4 and over that overall wins drops to 15.

Thought about it more and I realized that hard and fast criteria is difficult because the World Golf Hall of Fame includes more than just players.  10 or 20 years from now Andy North and Brandel Chamblee will probably become Hall of Famers.  Obviously, it would be mostly due to their journalism contributions, but it would be silly for North not to get some credit for the US Opens.  Same could be true for a guy like Mark Calcavechia if and when he gets in.  It would be a combination of his solid PGA Tour career, his senior tour career and perhaps an announcing career after that.

... but that's another thread.

LMFAO.

Not a huge fan, but Zach is a survivor who had to bust his butt to just get on the Tour, working his way up the hard way through the mini-tours. He beat Tiger in his prime at Augusta and that was a pretty gutsy performance against a stellar field at St. Andrews. I’d still like to see him get to 15 wins, but I wouldn’t squawk if he made the HOF without that.

Agreed.  He's getting the most out of what he has and worked hard to do it.  Kudos to Zach.

[boogielicious]

Quote:

Originally Posted by saevel25

I wonder what the criteria should be for the GHOF.

If you look at total wins, top 10% is 25 PGA Tour wins and over. Top 10% for majors is 3 wins and over.

I'd say it should be something like, if 1 or none majors at least 25 wins or more. If you have 2-3 majors then that overall wins drops to 20. If you have 4 and over that overall wins drops to 15.

Thought about it more and I realized that hard and fast criteria is difficult because the World Golf Hall of Fame includes more than just players.  10 or 20 years from now Andy North and Brandel Chamblee will probably become Hall of Famers.  Obviously, it would be mostly due to their journalism contributions, but it would be silly for North not to get some credit for the US Opens.  Same could be true for a guy like Mark Calcavechia if and when he gets in.  It would be a combination of his solid PGA Tour career, his senior tour career and perhaps an announcing career after that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick Martin

... but that's another thread.

LMFAO.

Quote:

Originally Posted by phan52

Not a huge fan, but Zach is a survivor who had to bust his butt to just get on the Tour, working his way up the hard way through the mini-tours. He beat Tiger in his prime at Augusta and that was a pretty gutsy performance against a stellar field at St. Andrews. I’d still like to see him get to 15 wins, but I wouldn’t squawk if he made the HOF without that.

Agreed.  He's getting the most out of what he has and worked hard to do it.  Kudos to Zach.

That would ruin it for me.  I'm not a fan of reporters getting into any Hall of Fame frankly.

[Golfingdad]

That would ruin it for me.  I'm not a fan of reporters getting into any Hall of Fame frankly.

Then I dare say it's likely already been ruined for you. ;)

[boogielicious]

Quote:

Originally Posted by boogielicious

That would ruin it for me.  I'm not a fan of reporters getting into any Hall of Fame frankly.

Then I dare say it's likely already been ruined for you. ;)

Yup!

[oregongolfguy]

It does become interesting....There is a pretty large list of guys that have fairly similar stats...1-2 Majors, 10-20 wins total, usually in pretty long careers.  It kind of becomes a question of whether it is the hall of elite or the hall of very good for a long time...I actually like Zach Johnson.  And I think that if he gets to 15+ wins or another major he will be in.......Just not sure if that SHOULD be enough.

I do wish it was a little more lofty on the criteria, like a few others have said.  I look at "my era" of players...basically players in the twilight of their career now and I really point to 3 guys outside of tiger that I think hall of fame when I think of them.....Els, Singh and Mickelson.  The rest is a bit debatable in my opinion.

[ChrisP]

A second major definitely moves you up a tier BUT there are some multiple major winners who don't necessarily belong in the HOF- Daly and Angel Cabrera come to mind among current players and, as was referred to earlier, Andy North didn't do that much other than his majors. PGA Tour Stats Paddy Harrington EVENTS 1ST 2ND 3RD TOP 10 TOP 25 MADE CUT CUT WD MONEY 248 6 6 2 53 99 183 65 -- $23,814,711 Zach Johnson EVENTS 1ST 2ND 3RD TOP 10 TOP 25 MADE CUT CUT WD MONEY 307 12 9 10 65 139 251 54 2 $37,558,906

I say no to John Daly. I know some here have said yes. He really has no other wins besides those two majors and his top-5 stats aren't all that impressive. The only reason Cabrera may is because of the SouthAmerican aspect, but even that I'm not so sure is enough. I think you need at least 10 wins to go with 2 majors. Zach has 12 wins in a very deep field which I think is close to punching the ticket.

[RiddleMeThis]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChrisP

I think you need at least 10 wins to go with 2 majors. Zach has 12 wins in a very deep field which I think is close to punching the ticket.

With the field being as deep as it is now-a-days, will that increase the value of wins when looking at new-era HOFers, therefore needing less to get it?  Or do you think it will raise the bar of # of wins generally needed to get in?  I can see arguments from both sides or neither side, if I'm making any sense at all...

[Golfingdad]

With the field being as deep as it is now-a-days, will that increase the value of wins when looking at new-era HOFers, therefore needing less to get it?  Or do you think it will raise the bar of # of wins generally needed to get in?  I can see arguments from both sides or neither side, if I'm making any sense at all...

Logic tells me it would have to.  Just like how times have changed in baseball. 300 wins was basically the benchmark for a pitcher to gain entry into the hall.  Then everything changed with 5 man rotations replacing 4 man rotations, and managers pulling pitchers earlier and more often, careers just generally being shorter, etc... all leading to a sharp decline in win totals.  Heck, we might never see a 300 win pitcher again.  But that certainly doesn't mean that we aren't seeing greatness, it just means we have to re-evaluate the parameters by which we measure it.

The same is true for golf.  Deeper fields means the wins are more spread out, which means each win has more value, which should mean that 10 wins and 2 majors today means a lot more than it would have in the 80's or 70's or 60's.

[GreatestGolfers]

My records show a definite step up - as you'd assume.

I look at and award points on sliding scale for Major wins, 2nd place & 3rd place finishes as well as US & Euro wins & runner ups

I factor in increased competitiveness in recent decades plus a few other key stats.

With all this Zach Johnson moves into my top 100 of my "All-time Greatest Golfers" Ranking - some others close to him: -

# 96 - Zach Johnson (2 Majors, 12 US)

# 99 - Tony Jacklin

#100 - Mark Calcavecchia

#104 - Martin Kaymer

Most recent Hall of Famer Inductees : -

# 60 - Mark O'Meara

# 87 - David Graham

Other Players mentioned : -

# 72 - Fred Couples

# 57 - Tom Kite (H.O.F)

A few Players with higher points, yet to be nominated/inducted : -

# 51 - Retief Goosen (2 Majors, 7 US & 14 Euro wins - 33 Individual wins in Total (excl. skins & team wins))

# 54 - Ian Woosnam (1 Major, 2 US, 29 Euro wins (Majors & WGC wins count as both US & Euro win)

# 55 - Davis Love III (1Major, 20 US wins)

[GreatestGolfers]

My records show a definite step up - as you'd assume.

I look at and award points on sliding scale for Major wins, 2nd place & 3rd place finishes as well as US & Euro wins & runner ups

I factor in increased competitiveness in recent decades plus a few other key stats.

In "Total Individual wins - I do not include "Skins" or "team wins" (e.g. World cup team)

With all this Zach Johnson moves into my top 100 of my "All-time Greatest Golfers" Ranking - some others close to him: -

# 96 - Zach Johnson (2 Majors, 12 US)

# 99 - Tony Jacklin (2 Majors, 4 US, 8 Euro + 15 others)

#100 - Mark Calcavecchia (1 Major, 13 US)

#104 - Martin Kaymer (2 Majors, 3 US, 11 Euro)

Most recent Hall of Famer Inductees: -

# 60 - Mark O'Meara - 2 Majors, 16 US, 5 Euro (27 Total Individual wins)

# 87 - David Graham - 2 Majors, 8 US, 4 Euro (29 Total Individual wins)

Other Players mentioned: -

# 57 - Tom Kite (H.O.F) - 1 Major, 19 US, 3 Euro (23 Total Individual wins)

# 72 - Fred Couples - 1 Major, 15 US, 3 Euro (25 Total Individual wins)

# 85 - Angel Cabrera - 2 Majors, 3 US, 5 Euro (50 Total Individual wins, many on "minor" S. American tour)

# 150 - John Daly - 2 Majors, 5 US, 3 Euro (11 Total Individual wins)

A few Players with higher points, yet to be nominated/inducted: -

# 51 - Retief Goosen - 2 Majors, 7 US & 14 Euro wins (33 Total Individual wins (excl. skins & team wins))

# 54 - Ian Woosnam - 1 Major, 2 US, 29 Euro wins

# 55 - Davis Love III - 1Major, 20 US wins

Cabrera & Daly basic stats added (Note : Majors & WGC wins count towards US & Euro win totals)

[Gunther]

My records show a definite step up - as you'd assume. I look at and award points on sliding scale for Major wins, 2nd place & 3rd place finishes as well as US & Euro wins & runner ups I factor in increased competitiveness in recent decades plus a few other key stats. With all this Zach Johnson moves into my top 100 of my "All-time Greatest Golfers" Ranking - some others close to him: - # 96 - Zach Johnson (2 Majors, 12 US) # 99 - Tony Jacklin #100 - Mark Calcavecchia #104 - Martin Kaymer [U]Most recent Hall of Famer Inductees[/U]: - # 60 - Mark O'Meara # 87 - David Graham [U]Other Players mentioned[/U]: - # 72 - Fred Couples # 57 - Tom Kite (H.O.F) [U]A few Players with higher points, yet to be nominated/inducted[/U]: - # 51 - Retief Goosen (2 Majors, 7 US & 14 Euro wins - 33 Individual wins in Total (excl. skins & team wins))  # 54 - Ian Woosnam (1 Major, 2 US, 29 Euro wins (Majors & WGC wins count as both US & Euro win) # 55 - Davis Love III (1Major, 20 US wins)

Pretty cool, I wonder based on your formula, who might be in your top 10?

[jgreen85]

problem with golf HOF is that there standards were too low for a long time. I think 3-4 majors 10+ victories and 30 top 5s or something. Guys can play golf for so long. Extra value for top 5s in majors.

Bottom line, there are a lot of people in golf HoF that shouldn't be.

[GreatestGolfers]

My Top 10 are based on many factors but two of the biggest influencers are: -

a) Major performance - 1st, 2nd and 3rd place finishes

b) Lifetime performance dominates over short term "hot streaks" (This aspect moves Bobby Jones down from a more often perceived top 5 position).

Also winners of the US Amateur and British Amateur in early 1900's receive high ranking points

(Note : I've listed some of the bigger influencing wins/placements of these players)

The TOP 10 and by my calculations, THE GREATEST PLAYERS of the game to date are: -

1) JACK NICKLAUS - 391 points

- Majors: 18 wins, 19 R-up, 9 third place

- 73 US

2) TIGER WOODS - 369 points

- Majors: 14 wins, 6 R-up, 4 third place

- 79 US, 18 WGC, 8 other Euro wins

3) SAM SNEAD - 250 points

- Majors: 7 wins, 8 R-up, 7 third place

- 82 US

4) BEN HOGAN - 221 points

- Majors: 9 wins, 6 R-up, 2 third place

- 64 US

5) GARY PLAYER - 204 points

- Majors: 9 wins, 6 R-up, 3 third place

- 24 US, 7 Aus Opens, 13 RSA Opens, 22 other "big" International wins

6) TIE - WALTER HAGEN - 200 points

- Majors: 11 wins, 3 R-up, 4 third place

- 45 US

6) TIE - ARNOLD PALMER - 200 points

- Majors: 7 wins, 10 R-up, 2 third place

- 62 US

8) BOBBY JONES - 186 points - (would have been ranked higher, but for a very short playing career)

- Majors: 7 wins, 6 R-up, 2 third place

- 5 US Amateurs & 1 British Amateur (before 1940)

9) TOM WATSON - 167 points

- Majors: 8 wins, 8 R-up, 2 third place

- 39 US

10) PHIL MICKELSON - 165 points

- Majors: 5 wins, 10 R-up, 7 third place

- 42 US, 2 WGC

- getting very close to Tom Watson (#9)