The Definitive Pace of Play Thread

[sjduffers]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ghalfaire

I believe the real problem is the course management doesn't schedule for 3.5 or 4.0 hours for a round. 7 Minutes between tee times is a 2.1 hour round.   Most foursome can't do that.  So the math is simple and I rest my case.

Well I don't really believe my math is wrong and of course it isn't the whole story.  But I believe scheduling tee times for less than 10 min or so apart is asking for slow play because there is no tolerance in the number to allow for someone to look for a ball or make the "walk of shame back to the tee" or for someone on an adjacent fairway who just hit their drive into your fairway to play his ball without causing a back up either on your hole or his hole one or for golfer who shoot 120, ect.  Tee times too close together put too many golfers on the course and make no allowance for any delay so when it happens the entire courses back up.

My analogy with car traffic on the freeway stands and yes, you can (and most people will) argue that congestion is the reason for the slow down, but that's not the whole story.  People slow down (both on the freeway and on the course) because they are unable to perform a relatively simple task, which is to keep up... and catch up when they fall behind.

And your math is definitely wrong because you are equating 7 or minutes between tee times as the time it takes to play a hole (7*18=126 or 2 hours and 6 minutes, which you wrote down as 2.1 hours).  Your quote is repeated just above: you can't deny it. This js definitely not the case as there is an average of 2 groups per hole, spaced by 2 intervals of 7 or 8 minutes, so they are meant to play a hole in 14 to 16 minutes on average, which is well over 4 hours... assuming no cluster**ck on their part, which is what causes the slow down.  The course does allow for over a 4 hours round.  The players don't. QED.

[DrvFrShow]

And as long as there isn't an open hole in front of me, I'm going to take my sweet time playing. I mean, why should I even rush at all? So I can "hurry up and wait?" They say to keep up with the group in front of you. If you're doing that, you're doing fine. And I rarely see groups gaining on me when I play on an open course. Singles, yes. There are these people who walk fast, pull a club, hit, and  walk fast to their  shot, pull a club and  hit, walk fast to their putt, sink it and move on and finish in 2.5 hrs. Fine. They're usually very low handicappers who've been playing for years. Not all of us play like that. I look back and if I see someone like that  they can play through. I'm not picking up my pace to stay ahead of them.

But with groups on the course, It's like driving in traffic; you can go with the flow of the cars in front and around you and just deal with it, or you can hurry up and try to weave in and out of each gap and get a case of high blood pressure. Who needs it?

I see nothing wrong with a 3.5 hr round.

[ghalfaire]

My analogy with car traffic on the freeway stands and yes, you can (and most people will) argue that congestion is the reason for the slow down, but that's not the whole story.  People slow down (both on the freeway and on the course) because they are unable to perform a relatively simple task, which is to keep up... and catch up when they fall behind.

And your math is definitely wrong because you are equating 7 or minutes between tee times as the time it takes to play a hole (7*18=126 or 2 hours and 6 minutes, which you wrote down as 2.1 hours).  Your quote is repeated just above: you can't deny it. This js definitely not the case as there is an average of 2 groups per hole, spaced by 2 intervals of 7 or 8 minutes, so they are meant to play a hole in 14 to 16 minutes on average, which is well over 4 hours... assuming no cluster**ck on their part, which is what causes the slow down.  The course does allow for over a 4 hours round.  The players don't. QED.

I think you just confirmed what I originally said.  Most foursome can't play eighteen in 2 hours 6 minutes.  If they are all shooting par that is approximately 26 seconds a shot (average of course) and I doubt most foursome consist of scratch golfer. More likely the are averaging more than  90 strokes and that is about 21 seconds a shot.  That interval has to include all activity like looking for balls, walking to the ball, traverse between holes, and all the other things that go on in a golf outing beside hitting the ball.  QED

As to the freeway more drivers don't find traveling 70MPH in bumper to bumper traffic as reasonable or prudent. Those that do find it reasonable and prudent are they ones that cause the accidents and because they don't don't understand physics.

[MyrtleBeachGolf]

Since I've started playing I always see people talking about how long rounds take and complaining about 4.5-5 hour rounds. I just don't see what the big rush is. Sure if people are doing deliberately slow things but if I go out to play on a Sunday I know it will be crowded and it will take a while. It's a weekend, what else do I possibly have to do for 4-5 hours besides hanging out outside while enjoying a few beers and playing a round?

Because I have a family and a job, like most of us do. But I love golf. I would rather play golf and have it only take up 4 hours of my busy day than for it to take up 6-7 hours of my day. Some days I need to go to work after golf.

[thefinlex]

a bazillion reasons for slow play and agree with most above however I also think that the course staff should make sure the rough is shorter.We all spray it now and then and need to take your medicine but plenty of courses, however good are never going to hold major tournys for the elite tour player for any reason,rely on walk ups for revenue and try to provide a "test" of golf fit for one but unnecessary for the other......their are plenty of tests already without forcing joe average and his pals all with 15+ h'caps to wander around in knee deep rough and then take a few hacks just to advance the ball,not always back on the short stuff...all frustrating and very time consuming for everybody!! Not just the penal rough but the extra time considering your shot due to penalty for not being straight........ keep course trim,everybody can find their ball and play at some type of pace with more chance of a score to keep them smiling and coming back and when/if the USGA come calling to host a tour event grow the rough and make the fairways 15ft wide so the big boys get a challenge.

For me,i try and play through the week in the evenings or very early/late on weekends due to family,work,blah blah blah 4.5 hrs is waay to long for me,im a 3.5 hr guy no probs

[RGoosen]

Because I have a family and a job, like most of us do. But I love golf. I would rather play golf and have it only take up 4 hours of my busy day than for it to take up 6-7 hours of my day. Some days I need to go to work after golf.

+1 Absolutely. Leave the beer and socializing to the 19th hole after the round. Leave > 5 hour rounds for 36 holes. I don't have kids but I want to golf in the morning and watch football in the afternoon.

[sjduffers]

I think you just confirmed what I originally said.  Most foursome can't play eighteen in 2 hours 6 minutes.

You think wrong and your math is still wrong. Nobody but you is saying that the time allotted by the course for a group to play the whole 18 holes course is 2 hours and 6 minutes when the tee times interval are 7 minutes.  The simple math of 7 x 18 = 126 (or 2 hours and 6 minutes), while correct from the standpoint that indeed 7x18 is 126, is completely incorrect as to how it reflects how people are supposed to play a whole round in that time given 7 minutes tee time intervals, and so of course, no one (or hardly anyone) does.  And this proves nothing other than you don't comprehend that when everyone is in their proper position on a course, there is an average of 2 groups per hole, not one, and so each group allotted average time to finish a hole is not one tee time, but two, or 14 minutes per hole, which is 4 hours and 12 minutes overall.

Oversimplication? Perhaps a little bit as the course flow dynamic between par 3s and par 5s make things vary a bit from that, but it is a vastly superior approximation to yours.

More likely the are averaging more than  90 strokes and that is about 21 seconds a shot.

As for computing the average number of seconds per shot and per player, it's a little more involved than dividing the total amount of time by the number of strokes, or even more fallaciously, the amount of time by the number of players by the amount of strokes as you have done: 7x18*60=7560 and 7560/90/4=21.  The time used is not linear as there are parallel activities (like travel towards the ball)...  You are essentially saying that if a player walks 2.5 hours to cover the course's 6 miles (don't forget that the actual distance travelled is more than 6500 yds or whatever the scorecard says) and then plays 90 shots at an average of 20 seconds each (time to pick a club, do the routine and hit), which equates to a total of 3 hours, a second player doing the exact same thing will take another 3 hours and as a result, that twosome will take 6 hours. Don't you see how ridiculous that math/claim is?

[ghalfaire]

Oversimplication? Perhaps a little bit as the course flow dynamic between par 3s and par 5s make things vary a bit from that, but it is a vastly superior approximation to yours.

Alright I understand what you're saying but let's approach this a different way.  Basically you are saying that the course can assume (on average) two foursomes a hole and schedule tee times accordingly.  So if you accept that 4 hours is  reasonable time for a foursome to play a round the the time between foursome should be 6.6 minutes. But now you have a full course (rush hour) and the first foursome that has an accident, like a lost ball or an unexpected OB or needs to play out of the wrong fairway, etc.  will slow the entire cadre of golfers behind them down.  So while it does take a golfer cause the slowdown, the course is not set up to allow for  this and it will happen with 144 golfers on the course most of whom (according to the golf foundation) can't break 100 on the card.

What I didn't say before is the public courses I have played set themselves up for this.  You make a 10 AM tee time will you tee at 10?  Maybe but more likely it will be immediately after the tee time in front of you clears the first tee, even if your tee time is still 20 Minutes away.  You don't get an option to wait at any public course I've been to.  So they ensure course "packing" and in my opinion some slow play.  I don't blame them too much for this as they are trying to make a living in competitive world and need to maximize their income when they can, e.g. weekends and peak season.  But it does make play for the individual slower in my opinion because there is no system tolerance (no buffer zone between foursomes) for those that play a single hole slower.  So you are likely going to have to wait at times. So the answer to the OP's question is no need to rush, just do you best to keep up with the foursome in front of you and enjoy the day and expect you are going to wait at times.

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by sjduffers

Oversimplication? Perhaps a little bit as the course flow dynamic between par 3s and par 5s make things vary a bit from that, but it is a vastly superior approximation to yours.

Alright I understand what you're saying but let's approach this a different way.  Basically you are saying that the course can assume (on average) two foursomes a hole and schedule tee times accordingly.  So if you accept that 4 hours is  reasonable time for a foursome to play a round the the time between foursome should be 6.6 minutes. But now you have a full course (rush hour) and the first foursome that has an accident, like a lost ball or an unexpected OB or needs to play out of the wrong fairway, etc.  will slow the entire cadre of golfers behind them down.  So while it does take a golfer cause the slowdown, the course is not set up to allow for  this and it will happen with 144 golfers on the course most of whom (according to the golf foundation) can't break 100 on the card.

What I didn't say before is the public courses I have played set themselves up for this.  You make a 10 AM tee time will you tee at 10?  Maybe but more likely it will be immediately after the tee time in front of you clears the first tee, even if your tee time is still 20 Minutes away.  You don't get an option to wait at any public course I've been to.  So they ensure course "packing" and in my opinion some slow play.  I don't blame them too much for this as they are trying to make a living in competitive world and need to maximize their income when they can, e.g. weekends and peak season.  But it does make play for the individual slower in my opinion because there is no system tolerance (no buffer zone between foursomes) for those that play a single hole slower.  So you are likely going to have to wait at times. So the answer to the OP's question is no need to rush, just do you best to keep up with the foursome in front of you and enjoy the day and expect you are going to wait at times.

I have never seen that.  The courses I play, have a tee sheet, whether printed or on the computer, and the starter works from the sheet.  If there is an open time and a group is present and ready to play may be invited to go off on that earlier scheduled time, but only in the case of an open tee time on the sheet.  If they don't choose to do so there is no requirement for it.  At Foothills, my old home course,  the tee sheet is the law, and unless there is an open time to move into you go when you are scheduled, not before and certainly not later.

Playing with my brother a couple of weeks ago on a Saturday morning the fairway was open when we got to the tee 10 minutes early, we met up with the twosome we were joining, and the starter asked us to wait until our scheduled time, specifically to avoid jamming up on the course.  This was on a city owned municipal course, somewhat upscale but still a muni (for those who know the Denver area, this was at Fox Hollow in Lakewood, Canyon/Meadow nines).  We played in 4:05 on a somewhat difficult course, teeing off at 8:49 on Saturday morning, and we actually did a fair amount of waiting too, despite starting with a full hole open in front of us.

[colin007]

I see nothing wrong with a 3.5 hr round.

for 4 players?  agreed.

[DeadMan]

Playing with my brother a couple of weeks ago on a Saturday morning the fairway was open when we got to the tee 10 minutes early, we met up with the twosome we were joining, and the starter asked us to wait until our scheduled time, specifically to avoid jamming up on the course.  This was on a city owned municipal course, somewhat upscale but still a muni (for those who know the Denver area, this was at Fox Hollow in Lakewood, Canyon/Meadow nines).  We played in 4:05 on a somewhat difficult course, teeing off at 8:49 on Saturday morning, and we actually did a fair amount of waiting too, despite starting with a full hole open in front of us.

You played a 4:05 round on a Saturday morning at Fox Hollow? That's about 30 minutes faster than I've ever played there on a Saturday morning. I've gone off the first tee time of the day, breezed through the front 9, and still played in 4:15 because we caught up to groups teeing off on the back 9. That is really strange. That course has a huge pace of play problem.

[DrvFrShow]

for 4 players?  agreed.

On a normal urban course, yes, but not on a course like Chambers. It just won't happen. And if you're playing as a single, you'll probably be playing behind a foursome, and  they'll be behind a foursome, so you'll be playing at the pace of the group in front of you unless you want to get all stressed out. So at that point, just relax and play at their pace.

[pumaAttack]

On Friday I played with my friend as a twosome.

The twosome in front of us played two balls for every hole...  There was a huge backup behind us and they were completely ignorant of the delay they were causing.   Courses need marshals to make sure play like that doesn't happen.  Just incredibly rude to everybody else on the course.

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

Playing with my brother a couple of weeks ago on a Saturday morning the fairway was open when we got to the tee 10 minutes early, we met up with the twosome we were joining, and the starter asked us to wait until our scheduled time, specifically to avoid jamming up on the course.  This was on a city owned municipal course, somewhat upscale but still a muni (for those who know the Denver area, this was at Fox Hollow in Lakewood, Canyon/Meadow nines).  We played in 4:05 on a somewhat difficult course, teeing off at 8:49 on Saturday morning, and we actually did a fair amount of waiting too, despite starting with a full hole open in front of us.

You played a 4:05 round on a Saturday morning at Fox Hollow? That's about 30 minutes faster than I've ever played there on a Saturday morning. I've gone off the first tee time of the day, breezed through the front 9, and still played in 4:15 because we caught up to groups teeing off on the back 9. That is really strange. That course has a huge pace of play problem.

I admit that I was pleasantly surprised.

[newtogolf]

I enjoy playing golf, I have no desire to rush a round to meet some ridiculous standard some have for how long a round of golf should take.  I play at a pace that is acceptable to the courses I play, if I happen to hit a lot of good shots in the fairway, I finish quicker.  if I miss the fairway and have to hunt for some golf balls I may be a bit slower but I'm always faster than the limits set by the course.

For those that want to play speed golf you should get the early tee times or late tee times so you can rush through the course.  If you're playing faster than me and there's room for you in front, I'll gladly let you play through.  What I won't do is speed up my play to appease you and push those in front of me, but feel free to skip a few holes if you're in that much of a rush.

[pumaAttack]

I enjoy playing golf, I have no desire to rush a round to meet some ridiculous standard some have for how long a round of golf should take.  I play at a pace that is acceptable to the courses I play, if I happen to hit a lot of good shots in the fairway, I finish quicker.  if I miss the fairway and have to hunt for some golf balls I may be a bit slower but I'm always faster than the limits set by the course.

For those that want to play speed golf you should get the early tee times or late tee times so you can rush through the course.  If you're playing faster than me and there's room for you in front, I'll gladly let you play through.  What I won't do is speed up my play to appease you and push those in front of me, but feel free to skip a few holes if you're in that much of a rush.

Or just sign up for Altered Course on the Golf Channel.... :)

[ghalfaire]

I have never seen that.  The courses I play, have a tee sheet, whether printed or on the computer, and the starter works from the sheet.  If there is an open time and a group is present and ready to play may be invited to go off on that earlier scheduled time, but only in the case of an open tee time on the sheet.  If they don't choose to do so there is no requirement for it.  At Foothills, my old home course,  the tee sheet is the law, and unless there is an open time to move into you go when you are scheduled, not before and certainly not later.

Playing with my brother a couple of weeks ago on a Saturday morning the fairway was open when we got to the tee 10 minutes early, we met up with the twosome we were joining, and the starter asked us to wait until our scheduled time, specifically to avoid jamming up on the course.  This was on a city owned municipal course, somewhat upscale but still a muni (for those who know the Denver area, this was at Fox Hollow in Lakewood, Canyon/Meadow nines).  We played in 4:05 on a somewhat difficult course, teeing off at 8:49 on Saturday morning, and we actually did a fair amount of waiting too, despite starting with a full hole open in front of us.

I suppose different places are different policies.  But on most muni courses, in fact most course period,  around here they pack the course during the prime season as they have to make their money in about 4 maybe 5 months before all the mid Westerners and Canadians go home for the Summer.  The only reason they might not call you to the tee early is if one of the players has not arrived yet or they have four unscheduled players around to fill the gap.  But for sure they don't leave the tee empty during prime time/season if they can avoid it, including your foursome getting called to the tee early.

[Dave2512]

I wish. You won't see a starter at the courses I play unless it's Sat or Sun morning. After that the traffic is controlled by the golfers out there. The intervals are when ever the group ahead is out of your range and that's different for everyone.