Taking good balls from range buckets

[Dave2512]

Not sure why this thread reminds me of the guy that dumpster dives on American ninja warrior.. Everything is free.99

[Golfingdad]

Because a Pro V1 is worth up to $5 and a candy bar is only $1?

No, because the store actually BOUGHT the candy bar. The ball just found its way into their range by happenstance.

[dkolo]

To paraphrase Cmdr. Joanne Galloway ... I "strenuously" disagree with this.

That's OK. You were sick the day they taught law at law school, haha.

[iacas]

No, because the store actually BOUGHT the candy bar. The ball just found its way into their range by happenstance.

That's an assumption. I know a local range that buys lake balls.

And… lawyers have already spoken to their ownership of the balls.

[Golfingdad]

That's an assumption. I know a local range that buys lake balls.

Absolutely. My entire opinion is based on the idea that it's pretty clearly not a range ball. If it's a range with a severely eclectic mix then there would be no way to know if it's theirs or not and my position doesn't apply there. Another part of the reason why this argument is kinda silly - were all kind of arguing against a straw man because we're all picturing our range or ranges and basing our opinions on that. Those that go to stand alone ranges or golf domes or places that they know purchase used balls as range balls are going to probably have different opinions than guys who are picturing the range at their club that is sandwiched in the 40 yard opening between the 1st and 9th fairways and pretty much exclusively uses yellow balls with stripes and the word "range" on it. When a pearl finds its way into one of these guys range baskets they know it came from a player. They probably also have donated several themselves.

[Dave2512]

Either way the temptation is the strange thing. Why does there have to be perks to going to the range. It's not a scavenger hunt. Editing this post. I grew up poor, lived in a car for a time, my mom drove a school bus when we fell on hard times. A night out was checking out albums at the library and eating cans of chili-mac my mom bought from the vending machine at work. I am okay paying my way. It's an honor I don't take lightly now that I earn six plus. I can afford golf balls, green fees, range fees, good gear etc. damn sure not going to mooch it.

[iacas]

Absolutely. My entire opinion is based on the idea that it's pretty clearly not a range ball. If it's a range with a severely eclectic mix then there would be no way to know if it's theirs or not and my position doesn't apply there.

It has been nobody's position that this is a big crime. But it is stealing.

Another part of the reason why this argument is kinda silly - were all kind of arguing against a straw man because we're all picturing our range or ranges and basing our opinions on that.

I don't agree with that: I'm talking about all ranges, or a generalized range. The balls belong belong to the range, and taking them is stealing them.

When a pearl finds its way into one of these guys range baskets they know it came from a player. They probably also have donated several themselves.

And they still don't get to take someone else's. Either the ball is the range's or it's someone else's (excluding the rare case where a guy finds his own ball in a range basket).

It's okay, Drew. I'll just let PING know to keep their eye on you in about a week…

[Mac62]

Quote:

Originally Posted by iacas

That's an assumption. I know a local range that buys lake balls.

Absolutely. My entire opinion is based on the idea that it's pretty clearly not a range ball. If it's a range with a severely eclectic mix then there would be no way to know if it's theirs or not and my position doesn't apply there.

Another part of the reason why this argument is kinda silly - were all kind of arguing against a straw man because we're all picturing our range or ranges and basing our opinions on that. Those that go to stand alone ranges or golf domes or places that they know purchase used balls as range balls are going to probably have different opinions than guys who are picturing the range at their club that is sandwiched in the 40 yard opening between the 1st and 9th fairways and pretty much exclusively uses yellow balls with stripes and the word "range" on it. When a pearl finds its way into one of these guys range baskets they know it came from a player. They probably also have donated several themselves.

Not arguing for one side or another, but you make a good point.  The range at my home course buys and uses only clearly marked, limited flight range balls.  They all have black stripes around them and "PRACTICE" stamped on the ball.  I wouldn't bother to steal one of them because my game is short enough without using a ball that's going to knock 10-15% off my already lacking distance.  If there's a ball other than that in the mix, it's one that found its way onto the range from the first fairway (which parallels the driving range), and isn't a ball the course bought - 100% guaranteed.

Another local course uses a mix of whatever balls they happen to have, marked (mostly, anyways) with a red felt pen stripe around them.  I'm pretty certain that most of them are lost balls they've recovered off the course.  No way of really knowing what balls they bought or what balls were "donated" by players.

It's pretty much a moot point for me because I only play one model of ball and the chances of a nice, new e6 popping up in the range balls at my home course is pretty close to nil.  If one did happen to show up in the pile and I decided to snag it, I'd have a very clear conscience that I wasn't stealing something the course bought, because I know 100%, without a doubt, for a fact that they would never buy e6s for use on the range.  To me it wouldn't be any different than picking up a stray e6 I found out on the course.

Either way it's a moot point.  The most likely scenario is I'd set it aside to hit on the range with my driver.  I can afford to buy my own balls, and if it's spent any time at all on the range it's probably not in "like new" condition anyway.

[David in FL]

No, because the store actually BOUGHT the candy bar. The ball just found its way into their range by happenstance.

You don't have to buy something to own it....

[Golfingdad]

You don't have to buy something to own it....

Exactly. Once I steal it from the range, I am now the rightful owner. ;)

[Ernest Jones]

@Sante TwoGloves Wouldn't it just be simpler to say, "I understand that this is technically theft, but in the grander scheme of things it's inconsequential and I know many range operators who actually prefer I take out the non-range balls." All these contortions and ridiculous straw men and logically fallacies just make sound like a jerk and damage your credibility on any future topics.

[Mr. Desmond]

Exactly. Once I steal it from the range, I am now the rightful owner. ;)

I understand the dilemma...

I would argue in this way:  When you purchase a tee time, you are paying for a license to play 18 holes. During that time, if you find a ball and no one else is around, it is your ball. The course has not expended time in collecting that ball and you have found it after it was abandoned by the owner. Technically, you might turn it into the lost and found -- ridiculous I know -- because it's tough to identify, and there is a customary understanding in the sport, that if you find a lost ball, it is yours if you find it while you are licensed to use the course.

Once your 18 holes are up, so is your license. You are not licensed to roam the course looking for balls. It is dangerous, and besides the course may contract with others to find lost balls, and makes a little revenue on the side from the contractors. The course owns the balls that it pays someone to collect (whether a contractor or employee), as it is customary in the sport after a ball that is abandoned by its owner and not found by licensed golfers on the course, that you do not place it in the lost and found - it is finders-keepers law. (lol)

On the range, if not labeled a "range ball", it is still a ball that the course expended time, might have even paid a contractor to find it, and it is in the bag of balls that the course gives you the right to use (but not take) on the range. If you ask the course operator for a ball or two, it is up to him, not you, to make the call to allow you to pocket a ball. But if you want that ball, equity says if you take a ball, you need to provide a ball. So I believe you could throw a decent ball into the bucket that you found on the course for a better ball in the range bag, and call it "good." It's equity, even though not technically the best thing to do.

[turtleback]

See, and I think the actual owner DOES need to be known.

Consider this analogy: A person shopping in Target who drops a $5 bill in the cart and leaves without noticing. The cart wrangler gathers the carts, cleans them, then puts them back up front for more customers to use without noticing the money. Are you going to tell me that the next customer who uses that cart and finds the $5 is stealing FROM Target if they take that bill home?

The only thing you need to know about ownership is: "Is it yours"  - if not it doesn't matter - do not take it.  Look at all the hairsplitting and rationalizing that solves.  So long as it is not YOU, it doesn't matter WHO owns it.

As to the Target analogy, @iacas has already exploded that one.

Yep, sanctimony right there! Or are you saying you've never done anything wrong in your life?

Judge not lest thee be judged.

So someone has to have lived an absolutely perfect life and never have done anything wrong in your whole life to notice and comment on something being stealing?

Say dumb things not, lest ye be judged.

Yep I'm a thief, self confessed as I've stolen at least 2 non range balls from a golf range.

Happy now? As you say, you're not being sanctimonious, you're just pointing out how wrong it is.

Fine, you think it's wrong, I don't think it's a huge deal. The law says you're right and I'm wrong, I'm ok with that.

I think it's sanctimony because no doubt you and everyone else pillorying me I this thread will have broken the law in other aspects of their life, however trivial.

The way some of you have gone on though was as though I was justifying taking someones driver out their bag because they'd left their bag unattended.

Yes in the eyes of the law theft is theft. Yep as you say, if you were a juror you'd find me guilty. Good for you son.

As I say, I bet you guys are super fun at a party?!

I don't know how much fun I am at a party, but if you are there I'll be sure to keep an eye on the spoons and count them afterwards.

I think most people most of the time want to do the right thing.  I can easily believe that a lot of people have done this without even thinking about it as such.  I hope some of those, in reading this thread, say to themselves "hey they are right - no more".  I like to think that is almost all of the people who have done it because I generally like to thing good about people.  Then there are the people who doggedly defend something because they did it and cannot admit they were wrong.   What I do not understand is why these people seem so devoid of any understanding of basic logic in their arguments.

If someone tells a lie is that person a lier (plural)?

Everybody lies, to some extent  But liars lie BECAUSE they are liars.

I'm actually the most honest player you'll find! I call shots on myself all the time.

You people don't know me for shit yet are happy to label me everything under the sun.

Not sure this place is for me? Lol

No you aren't, because I know a lot of people who play the same way you claim to but do not steal golf balls from the range.  Which makes them honester.

As to not knowing you, think about it  What do we have to go on with you? It isn't your appearance, it isn't your gender, it isn't your ethnicity, it is the portion of your mental processes that you choose to put on display in your posts.  So people look at you exactly as you have portrayed yourself - particularly since you have so little history to provide context for them.

Your bad choices.

I wonder how many of these 'holier than thou' types have:

1) driven a car after having a few cocktails, or

2) cheated on their spouse, or

3) lied to anyone, ever, or

4) failed to pay tax on a internet purchase,

5) etc, etc, etc

But you damn well better believe they'd NEVER consider picking a brand new ProV from a range bucket. Not a chance.

I wonder how many people who have done these things have done onto a public message board and defended their actions as really being OK?

Quote:

Originally Posted by MyrtleBeachGolf

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sante TwoGloves

No sir but I have to inform you that YOU are the one stealing. You are using the time to not do as was contracted and that is hit their range balls. You are using that time to hit your own balls without their consent. Hitting your own balls as I tried to establish earlier is putting hay into their system that they did not ask you to do. More manpower is required now for places who sort, more grief for the range owner trying to make his product consistent with his or her own balls, not yours. Like I said to you before, think about the range owner and not your convoluted idea of what is stealing.

This discussion has become absurd.

So, you might also think it's stealing to take let's say 30 seconds to hit each ball instead of 20 seconds or something to that effect?

Or what if you take a practice swing and displace some turf - must also be stealing since you didn't pay to take a divot.  The level of arguments being made on the wrong, yes wrong, side are frankly some of the worst arguments ever offered here for anything.

@MyrtleBeachGolf nailed it.

Absolutely. My entire opinion is based on the idea that it's pretty clearly not a range ball. If it's a range with a severely eclectic mix then there would be no way to know if it's theirs or not and my position doesn't apply there.

What does that have to do with anything?  Are only the balls in your bag on which you have imprinted your name your property?  Whether it is a "range ball" or not, it belongs to the range.  Markings do not determine ownership.

But don't worry, as soon as you stop playing devil's advocate gadfly your powers of logical reasoning will return.

[Sante TwoGloves]

@Sante TwoGloves Wouldn't it just be simpler to say, "I understand that this is technically theft, but in the grander scheme of things it's inconsequential and I know many range operators who actually prefer I take out the non-range balls." All these contortions and ridiculous straw men and logically fallacies just make sound like s jerk and damage your credibility on any future topics.

I dont think its theft but i guess thats the debate. I was just trying to keep the conversation interesting. I might be right though when I say that I think it is equally important to ask the range owner if it's ok to hit non range balls into his range as asking first if you can take them. The problem for me is that I have a weird, absurd sense of humor that doesn't always translate well. Hard to see someone's tongue in their cheek when they are making comments on the web. This morning ball report for me? Walked along the road by my girlfriends house and found 14 balls. Kept 4 prov1 s and 2 bridgestones. Went to the range and picked 4 more prov1 s and hit the ones that I found along the road i didnt want. These premium balls aren't all that premium. I have hit many prov1 s into the range before all scuffed and dirty and covered in dots and marks.

[Golfingdad]

The only thing you need to know about ownership is: "Is it yours"  - if not it doesn't matter - do not take it.  Look at all the hairsplitting and rationalizing that solves.  So long as it is not YOU, it doesn't matter WHO owns it. As to the Target analogy, @iacas has already exploded that one. So someone has to have lived an absolutely perfect life and never have done anything wrong in your whole life to notice and comment on something being stealing? Say dumb things not, lest ye be judged. I don't know how much fun I am at a party, but if you are there I'll be sure to keep an eye on the spoons and count them afterwards. I think most people most of the time want to do the right thing.  I can easily believe that a lot of people have done this without even thinking about it as such.  I hope some of those, in reading this thread, say to themselves "hey they are right - no more".  I like to think that is almost all of the people who have done it because I generally like to thing good about people.  Then there are the people who doggedly defend something because they did it and cannot admit they were wrong.   What I do not understand is why these people seem so devoid of any understanding of basic logic in their arguments. Everybody lies, to some extent  But liars lie BECAUSE they are liars. No you aren't, because I know a lot of people who play the same way you claim to but do not steal golf balls from the range.  Which makes them honester. As to not knowing you, think about it  What do we have to go on with you? It isn't your appearance, it isn't your gender, it isn't your ethnicity, it is the portion of your mental processes that you choose to put on display in your posts.  So people look at you exactly as you have portrayed yourself - particularly since you have so little history to provide context for them. Your bad choices. I wonder how many people who have done these things have done onto a public message board and defended their actions as really being OK? Or what if you take a practice swing and displace some turf - must also be stealing since you didn't pay to take a divot.  The level of arguments being made on the wrong, yes wrong, side are frankly some of the worst arguments ever offered here for anything. @MyrtleBeachGolf nailed it. What does that have to do with anything?  Are only the balls in your bag on which you have imprinted your name your property?  Whether it is a "range ball" or not, it belongs to the range.  Markings do not determine ownership. But don't worry, as soon as you stop playing devil's advocate gadfly your powers of logical reasoning will return.   ;-) :whistle:

On phone so I'm not about to try and erase all which doesn't apply, but to your first paragraph ... This theory gets "exploded" to use your word when you apply it to balls found in the woods or tees in perfect condition found on the tee box. Those aren't yours either. The ownership of the balls matters and I dispute the level of ownership the range has because the ball found its way into one of their bags.

[David in FL]

On phone so I'm not about to try and erase all which doesn't apply, but to your first paragraph ... This theory gets "exploded" to use your word when you apply it to balls found in the woods or tees in perfect condition found on the tee box. Those aren't yours either. The ownership of the balls matters and I dispute the level of ownership the range has because the ball found its way into one of their bags.

I really struggle to understand how you dispute their ownership. Do you question their ownership of balls that they've paid a diver to retrieve from a water hazard?

[Aflighter]

Bottomline is its stealing.There really is no grey area.You paid to hit the balls they gave you not to take some home with you.If you find some that are what you like then why not just ask them if you can have them instead of just taking em.

[Golfingdad]

I really struggle to understand how you dispute their ownership. Do you question their ownership of balls that they've paid a diver to retrieve from a water hazard?

Nope. Re read my post to Erik last night. My opinion is based on what I believe to be the "typical" situation here, which is a range that borders a hole on the course and that courses range balls are identifiable. Specifically, I'm thinking of my brothers course, Belmont CC, where the range is narrow and just between two holes and uses all yellow balls with black stripes. Logic and common sense would tell you that a gleaming ball in their range baskets came from somebody playing one of those holes. Secondarily, I think your suggestion might be a red herring because I find it hard to believe that a course would pay somebody to retrieve nice balls lost in the water just so they can throw them on the range and not so they could re sell them. But I have no information otherwise though, so I'll take your word for it. (Skeptical though) :)