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World Handicap System Now Out (2020)


iacas

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2 hours ago, Double Mocha Man said:

So my handicap will go down when I play in the snow?  (See my personal icon)

Washington's active handicap is from March 1st thru November 14th.  

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12 minutes ago, dennyjones said:

Washington's active handicap is from March 1st thru November 14th.  

True enough.  But this year we had snow after March 1st.  Also, I'd like to post scores year 'round, but the weather rule would need to be invoked often.

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  • 1 month later...
On 3/26/2018 at 6:58 AM, graham57 said:

I'm not sure if competitions will become less attractive under the new system. As Zeph mentions, amateurs in Europe often play a really good round once and then really struggle to play to it subsequently. This can lead to players avoiding competitions in order to hang on to that better handicap. I think competitions will be liked and disliked for the sames reasons as before: cameraderie, the chance to measure yourself with others (often with players you wouldn't normally play with) and the competitive challenge for those who like and enjoy them, the added stress level and pressure for those who don't.

I certainly hope that competitions don't lose appeal, as they are a major element of what makes golf a club or community sport. Getting and maintaining a handicap with private rounds could potentially make golf more individual/insular.

 

That isn’t entirely true. 

In Europe your hcp can only drop if you are under 36. And even then it will only drop by 0.1

And you have to shoot at least 6 over if you are a 35 hcp to drop by 0.1. 

If you want to drop from 36 to 24,9 in a single round for example, you’d need to shoot a round 24 below your hcp. That equals to a round in the mid 80s. No 36 shoots a round in the mid 80s. 

51BBCF57-696E-4370-A827-03304970F1B0.jpeg

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On 6/19/2018 at 8:39 PM, Killa said:

 

That isn’t entirely true. 

In Europe your hcp can only drop if you are under 36. And even then it will only drop by 0.1

And you have to shoot at least 6 over if you are a 35 hcp to drop by 0.1. 

If you want to drop from 36 to 24,9 in a single round for example, you’d need to shoot a round 24 below your hcp. That equals to a round in the mid 80s. No 36 shoots a round in the mid 80s. 

51BBCF57-696E-4370-A827-03304970F1B0.jpeg

Everything you write is correct (except that the „ceiling“ for your handicap being raised has now been reduced to 26.5) - I am just not sure where it contradicts what I wrote. According to an article on handicaps on the website of the German Golf Association, any score over 30 Stableford points represents a „good“ round, based on the logic that your handicap represents your best, rather than your average performance. As the table shows, the reward for a good score (i.e. >36 points) is greater than the penalty for a bad one, so your handicap tends to go down faster than it goes up.

My wife had a really good season a while ago, going from a 34 handicap to 26.1 in only a couple of competitions. At the end of the season, the club‘s handicap committee decided to „reward“ her by assigning her a handicap of 24.1. In the following 8 competitions she played in, she failed to reach the buffer zone and went up to 24.9. This continual „failure“ to play to her handicap reduced the enjoyment for her, and it is only recently that she is playing consistently to her handicap and has a genuine chance of reducing it further.

The point I was making is that compeitions are one of the main things that get a large number of members together who normally might not even know each other, and that de-linking handicaps from competitions might potentially „individualise“ club life more than today, which I would find regrettable.

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34 minutes ago, graham57 said:

The point I was making is that compeitions are one of the main things that get a large number of members together who normally might not even know each other, and that de-linking handicaps from competitions might potentially „individualise“ club life more than today, which I would find regrettable.

Well you can’t post a round played alone, so that’s still good.

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7 hours ago, graham57 said:

Everything you write is correct (except that the „ceiling“ for your handicap being raised has now been reduced to 26.5) - I am just not sure where it contradicts what I wrote. According to an article on handicaps on the website of the German Golf Association, any score over 30 Stableford points represents a „good“ round, based on the logic that your handicap represents your best, rather than your average performance. As the table shows, the reward for a good score (i.e. >36 points) is greater than the penalty for a bad one, so your handicap tends to go down faster than it goes up.

 My wife had a really good season a while ago, going from a 34 handicap to 26.1 in only a couple of competitions. At the end of the season, the club‘s handicap committee decided to „reward“ her by assigning her a handicap of 24.1. In the following 8 competitions she played in, she failed to reach the buffer zone and went up to 24.9. This continual „failure“ to play to her handicap reduced the enjoyment for her, and it is only recently that she is playing consistently to her handicap and has a genuine chance of reducing it further.

 The point I was making is that compeitions are one of the main things that get a large number of members together who normally might not even know each other, and that de-linking handicaps from competitions might potentially „individualise“ club life more than today, which I would find regrettable.

 

To go from 34 to 26.1 is quite a task in only a couple of competitions. If we say a couple = 2 then she'd need to play at least 16 under in 2 rounds. And since she'd go 4 down in the first competition that means 20 under in 2 rounds. That's bordering on impossible if she isn't actually a real 20ish hcp...

 

34 - 30 hcp you need 44 net points (breakeven for a 26) then 30-26.1 you need 44 net points again (breakeven for a 22 hcp). That's an improvement I was hoping for this year - from 31 to under 20, but I think I won't be able to do it because I don't play in enough tournaments. And I'm a MUCH better player than I was when I shot my 31 hcp score...

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2 hours ago, Killa said:

 

To go from 34 to 26.1 is quite a task in only a couple of competitions. If we say a couple = 2 then she'd need to play at least 16 under in 2 rounds. And since she'd go 4 down in the first competition that means 20 under in 2 rounds. That's bordering on impossible if she isn't actually a real 20ish hcp...

 

34 - 30 hcp you need 44 net points (breakeven for a 26) then 30-26.1 you need 44 net points again (breakeven for a 22 hcp). That's an improvement I was hoping for this year - from 31 to under 20, but I think I won't be able to do it because I don't play in enough tournaments. And I'm a MUCH better player than I was when I shot my 31 hcp score...

You are probably right: „a couple“ was probably used too loosely, though the round which took her to that low handicap was in fact a 44 point round in the regional finall of a nationwide competition series, and that round won her a free trip to play Teeth of the Dog (where - despite the new low handicap - she made 40 points in the compeition final). It was that wound which took her down so far.

Omge again, however: my main point is the role competitions play in club life and the possible effects of the new habdicap system, rather than the math.

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  • 1 month later...
Guest smd
On 6/26/2018 at 9:35 PM, graham57 said:

You are probably right: „a couple“ was probably used too loosely, though the round which took her to that low handicap was in fact a 44 point round in the regional finall of a nationwide competition series, and that round won her a free trip to play Teeth of the Dog (where - despite the new low handicap - she made 40 points in the compeition final). It was that wound which took her down so far.

Omge again, however: my main point is the role competitions play in club life and the possible effects of the new habdicap system, rather than the math.

High hadicap golfers tend to be more  inconsistent in their scoring, its not at all unusual to see a 34 handicapper, particularly someone who is not playing long, but has a natural ability, to score 44 points. What you are describing happens on a regular basis. A friend of mine who was a 20 handicap golfer, started to play well and had a few rounds in the 40 to 42 points range, this combined with the "exceptional play" rule - he got docked an additional 2 shots by the handicapper. He was down to 14. He could not play off it. it spoiled his enjoyment of the game for 2 years. He is now back up to 17 and is playing much closer to that.

There is no perfect system. But as per your first post there are, unfortunately, golfers out there who 'hang on' to their handicap by playing in as few competitions as possible. They then perform fantastically well in the big competitons. Its very difficult to legislate for all scenarios.

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On 6/19/2018 at 8:39 PM, Killa said:

That isn’t entirely true. 

In Europe your hcp can only drop if you are under 36. And even then it will only drop by 0.1

And you have to shoot at least 6 over if you are a 35 hcp to drop by 0.1. 

If you want to drop from 36 to 24,9 in a single round for example, you’d need to shoot a round 24 below your hcp. That equals to a round in the mid 80s. No 36 shoots a round in the mid 80s. 

51BBCF57-696E-4370-A827-03304970F1B0.jpeg

First of all, I get confused by the way you use the word "drop". Does that mean the handicap is lowered or increased? Because you use it both ways.

The problem is not a 36 handicapper scoring 60 points, but I've seen many post rounds around 40-45. A round of 42 points for a 30 handicapper will lower their handicap with 4, down to 26. If they shoot 2-3 rounds like that during the year, they will quickly lower their handicap, but for most other rounds struggle to get close to 36 points. That's of course in the nature of a high handicapper, but I believe that the current system is making it more difficult to post a score closer to your handicap than one based on your average score over 20 rounds would do.

A high handicapper can have 2-3 great rounds in one year and go from 36 to below 25, but they are often not that much better. And the handicap doesn't increase by 0.1 per point below the buffer zone. That's a flat 0.1 no matter how poorly you score. So the high handicapper can go out and shoot 42 points one round, drop 4 points in handicap and shoot 20 next round, only to gain 0.1 points. After 10 rounds of poor play below the buffer zone they are still just up one point, whereas they can shoot 38 points and drop back down again.

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Guest smd
8 minutes ago, Zeph said:

First of all, I get confused by the way you use the word "drop". Does that mean the handicap is lowered or increased? Because you use it both ways.

The problem is not a 36 handicapper scoring 60 points, but I've seen many post rounds around 40-45. A round of 42 points for a 30 handicapper will lower their handicap with 4, down to 26. If they shoot 2-3 rounds like that during the year, they will quickly lower their handicap, but for most other rounds struggle to get close to 36 points. That's of course in the nature of a high handicapper, but I believe that the current system is making it more difficult to post a score closer to your handicap than one based on your average score over 20 rounds would do.

A high handicapper can have 2-3 great rounds in one year and go from 36 to below 25, but they are often not that much better. And the handicap doesn't increase by 0.1 per point below the buffer zone. That's a flat 0.1 no matter how poorly you score. So the high handicapper can go out and shoot 42 points one round, drop 4 points in handicap and shoot 20 next round, only to gain 0.1 points. After 10 rounds of poor play below the buffer zone they are still just up one point, whereas they can shoot 38 points and drop back down again.

Addionally they can only get a maximum of 1 shot back per year,

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29 minutes ago, smdillon said:

Addionally they can only get a maximum of 1 shot back per year,

Oh, really? I either didn't know or have forgotten.

@iacas Yep. Good riddance I say.

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Sorry I didn’t notice I used the same word both ways. 

In my eyes our version has more problems with people scoring very poorly in relation to their handicap than scoring very high. 

Because I usually play in tourneys with people in their 70s who are in the 20s hcp wise. In reality they strugle to play like a low 30s capper. 

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52 minutes ago, Killa said:

Sorry I didn’t notice I used the same word both ways. 

In my eyes our version has more problems with people scoring very poorly in relation to their handicap than scoring very high. 

Because I usually play in tourneys with people in their 70s who are in the 20s hcp wise. In reality they strugle to play like a low 30s capper. 

Yep, and the new system would help keep those players at a higher handicap. There are of course those that play a lot better in casual rounds than tournament rounds, but that's just not something the system can do anything about. Especially higher handicaps do fluctuate more in scoring relative to their handicap. 

With the new system, those poor tournament rounds will have a larger impact on the handicap than they do today. Then, the actual score will drag down the average used for calculating the handicap, while today its just 0.1 up. 

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  • 3 weeks later...
On 17. avgust 2018 at 1:38 PM, Zeph said:

First of all, I get confused by the way you use the word "drop". Does that mean the handicap is lowered or increased? Because you use it both ways.

The problem is not a 36 handicapper scoring 60 points, but I've seen many post rounds around 40-45. A round of 42 points for a 30 handicapper will lower their handicap with 4, down to 26. If they shoot 2-3 rounds like that during the year, they will quickly lower their handicap, but for most other rounds struggle to get close to 36 points. That's of course in the nature of a high handicapper, but I believe that the current system is making it more difficult to post a score closer to your handicap than one based on your average score over 20 rounds would do.

 A high handicapper can have 2-3 great rounds in one year and go from 36 to below 25, but they are often not that much better. And the handicap doesn't increase by 0.1 per point below the buffer zone. That's a flat 0.1 no matter how poorly you score. So the high handicapper can go out and shoot 42 points one round, drop 4 points in handicap and shoot 20 next round, only to gain 0.1 points. After 10 rounds of poor play below the buffer zone they are still just up one point, whereas they can shoot 38 points and drop back down again.

Well just to add to your sample size. I shot a 48 last time out. And I had 4 horrible holes (0 points). Realistically I'm playing around a low 20s hcp but am a 31hcp. That's the worst about this hcp system, you can't avoid being a sandbagger if you don't take the time to play tournaments. I've played about 10-15 rounds this year and 0 tournaments. So next month when we will have our club championship I will probably compete out of contention to avoid everyone looking at me sideways as I've "sandbagged" my way to 2 club championships in the past 2 years (first in the 36-54 hcp category and the second in the 0-36 net category). 

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  • 3 months later...

Read the first 4 pages and felt like posting. As someone who follows various types of racing sports (auto,moto, track and field, horse) I'm used to talking about a track/course being slower/faster on a given day. That kind of thinking easily relates to golf once I started playing this game.

As someone who likes to see the numbers and has an intro level of stats knowledge, I'm just curious about stuff behind the scenes. I would like to see the daily adjustment number and how many rounds were used on a day to get it. I'm also just curious what the sample size needed is to establish the adjustments.

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15 minutes ago, cutchemist42 said:

As someone who likes to see the numbers and has an intro level of stats knowledge, I'm just curious about stuff behind the scenes. I would like to see the daily adjustment number and how many rounds were used on a day to get it. I'm also just curious what the sample size needed is to establish the adjustments.

Unless you're in tight with someone at a local golf association or the USGA, I don't know that we'll ever be able to expose that information to you.

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  • iacas changed the title to World Handicap System Now Out (2020)
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