Rule Prohibiting Caddies/Partners from Lining up Players

[luu5]

12 hours ago, iacas said:

Why would you vote "no" if you favor the caddie not even being allowed on the putting green?

All or "nothing", regarding the caddie.

[turtleback]

21 hours ago, Golfingdad said:

I didn't say 'significantly' either.

Another point worth considering:  If me or my brother weren't allowed to stand behind him while helping him line up straight it wouldn't stop us from trying to help him line up, it would just make it a little harder because it would be a little harder for us to direct him.  I would think that would slow everything down.

Isn't this a little different?   Since you are giving him advice you aren't purporting to be following the rules to start with.  How does what happens in a round where you aren't following the rules bear on what the rules are, or should be?

And I second the notion that this kind of lining up, as an educational method, should be happening on the range, not the course.  And definitely NOT in a competition, nor any round that purports to be played under the rules.

[Golfingdad]

37 minutes ago, turtleback said:

Isn't this a little different?   Since you are giving him advice you aren't purporting to be following the rules to start with.  How does what happens in a round where you aren't following the rules bear on what the rules are, or should be?

Oh my god, yes.  You are absolutely right.  I can't believe I didn't think of this.  The fact that I gleaned a little insight into the the possible thinking of a dad or relative who might act as a caddie during a casual round with my brother and 12 year old nephew at their quiet little country club by not following the rules should TOTALLY and COMPLETELY render any and all opinions I may have been able to form from this information as moot and invalid.

I am honestly ashamed that I ever posted in the first place.  Please disregard any and all of the things I said yesterday.  I feel horrible for all whom I may have led astray with my careless actions.

[iacas]

No need to be a jerk, Drew. Sheesh. Benefit of the doubt, please.

I don't know that I can say what @turtleback's point was, but you could have at least asked for clarification. You also failed to acknowledge this part:

5 hours ago, turtleback said:

And I second the notion that this kind of lining up, as an educational method, should be happening on the range, not the course.  And definitely NOT in a competition, nor any round that purports to be played under the rules.

There's not much to acknowledge, but he does disagree with you on how the rule should be.

[Golfingdad]

33 minutes ago, iacas said:

No need to be a jerk, Drew. Sheesh. Benefit of the doubt, please.

Meh.   Maybe its an unnecessary chip on the shoulder, but I'm so tired of the you're-not-playing-real-golf line of arguments at this point that I don't care to go out of my way to not be a jerk about it - especially when it's misguided like this.

 

38 minutes ago, iacas said:

You also failed to acknowledge this part:

There's not much to acknowledge, but he does disagree with you on how the rule should be.

OK ...

 

6 hours ago, turtleback said:

And I second the notion that this kind of lining up, as an educational method, should be happening on the range, not the course.  And definitely NOT in a competition, nor any round that purports to be played under the rules.

The thing is, I don't actually disagree.  I didn't vote no because I think that players shouldn't be able to line themselves up (because I do), but rather because I disagree that it's necessary.  I don't think that it slows the game down and I don't care if Rickie Fowler wants to afford himself a slight extra bit of confidence on his approach shots.  I said it before, but I don't see it as being any different than Phil having Bones stand over his putt and confirm his read.

I do disagree with his first sentence though.  Why shouldn't parents be able to help teach their kids on the course?  Why should it be exclusively on the range that they help them learn to aim?

[Fourputt]

10 minutes ago, Golfingdad said:

I do disagree with his first sentence though.  Why shouldn't parents be able to help teach their kids on the course?  Why should it be exclusively on the range that they help them learn to aim?

Because it slows everything down.  You might have the courtesy to only do it when the course is not busy, but the next guy who sees you doing decides that it's okay for his kid, only he does it in a round at 10 AM on Saturday and can't understand why it's okay for you but not for him.  An occasional playing lesson is fine but it should be more about how to manage a round, not simple basics which can be more easily taught on the practice tee or green.  

I might see it differently if there was no other option, but since there clearly is a better choice, I can't support your position.

[iacas]

19 minutes ago, Golfingdad said:

I don't think that it slows the game down and I don't care if Rickie Fowler wants to afford himself a slight extra bit of confidence on his approach shots.

You have no real experience with that, though. One time with a kid who aimed so poorly that he'd have taken a massive number more strokes by hitting it into the trees doesn't really cut it.

I do. And as I've said, I'd be willing to bet a LOT of money that it slows the game down. That's not to say my experience matters and yours does not, but it does favor weighting my experiences (plural many times over) over your experience (singular). I'm confident that if you had my experiences, you'd reach the same conclusion about how it would affect pace of play similarly.

Does it affect PoP at the pro level? Not a lot (though I've seen Paula and others get called off shots when they're not aligned well), but it's more than zero seconds even at that level. It's what I'd call "negligible" there, absolutely, but it's not even zero there.

And… this has nothing to do with Phil and Bones standing over putts. You can't disallow everything that could lead to slow play. I chose this one for three reasons (the first two of which you know, the third is justification):

1. It slows play (willing to bet a lot of money there… and have a fair amount of experience having seen it in tournaments)
2. I think players should be responsible for lining themselves up, just as they're responsible for making a swing or dealing with rain.
3. There's already a rule that addresses very nearly this exact thing: I'm simply moving up the time frame where the caddie has to vacate that spot from "when the player makes his swing" to "when the player takes his stance."

Oh, and @Fourputt seems to agree it slows things down. Not giving it a lot of weight, but it too gets some. Just as your one experience gets some weight.

[DrvFrShow]

Do you honestly think making it against the rules is going to stop it on a Saturday round or any non-tournament round? Really? Parents playing a round with their 12 year olds on weekends will continue to give advice and teach their kids the game especially if the parent is a decent golfer.

It may speed up play a little during a tournament, or a lot during a kids tournament should what Erik says be as bad as he says it is. Or in a tournament it may make the player take a little more time adjusting the club head alignment for a putt and making sure it's square with the line before taking their stance.

[Golfingdad]

6 minutes ago, iacas said:

You have no real experience with that, though. One time with a kid who aimed so poorly that he'd have taken a massive number more strokes by hitting it into the trees doesn't really cut it.

I do. And as I've said, I'd be willing to bet a LOT of money that it slows the game down.

Sorry ... I misspoke there.  I said it backwards.  No dispute that this slows the game down at the kids levels.  I should have said that I don't believe that this rule change would speed things up.  On that, you and I have the same amount of experience, which is to say none, because the rule hasn't been changed.

You think that the offending parents would acquiesce and stand aside, and I think those same parents would simply find less efficient ways to "help."

I should add, by the way, that I may sound to some like I'm adamantly against this rule change idea, and that would be incorrect.  I like debating and I like finding and pointing out flaws in logic and stuff like that, but it's usually fairly independent of the exact topic.  If my vote actually counted, and I was the swing vote to boot, I would switch to yes.  I like change and trying out new things!  But since it's just useless opinions, I'll stick to the one that believes that this is unnecessary and wouldn't really do anything.  Except perhaps annoy a few pros who have come to rely on that.  (Maybe that's a good thing ;))

[iacas]

11 minutes ago, DrvFrShow said:

Do you honestly think making it against the rules is going to stop it on a Saturday round or any non-tournament round?

Who cares?

Seriously, that's not the topic here. People ignore the Rules of Golf all the time. That's neither here nor there, as this is a discussion bout the Rules. If we discarded all the rules that people ignored on a Saturday non-tournament round… we'd not have any rules.

[DrvFrShow]

But that's what was being discussed a few posts back. i'm sorry if I brought up that fact.

[iacas]

2 minutes ago, Golfingdad said:

Sorry ... I misspoke there.  I said it backwards.  No dispute that this slows the game down at the kids levels.  I should have said that I don't believe that this rule change would speed things up.  On that, you and I have the same amount of experience, which is to say none, because the rule hasn't been changed.

I don't have none. The girl was faster when her father wasn't there to align her.

Natalie's asked me to line her up, too, particularly when she sees others doing it. I tell her "no," and she doesn't grind her pre-shot routine to a halt constantly re-checking her alignment.

So no, I disagree that I have no experience.

Paula Creamer's pre-shot routine is faster now, too, without her caddie lining her up.

2 minutes ago, Golfingdad said:

You think that the offending parents would acquiesce and stand aside, and I think those same parents would simply find less efficient ways to "help."

I disagree. On THAT we have no data or experience, though. But I've never seen a parent adjusting their kid's alignment from the side, because I think it doesn't take much intellect to realize how fruitless that can be. Just as I haven't seen an adult literally putting his kids' fingers on the grip of the club before each shot, even though they could under the Rules.

2 minutes ago, DrvFrShow said:

But that's what was being discussed a few posts back. i'm sorry if I brought up that fact.

I don't think it was. As a general rule (no pun intended), none of the discussions in the Rules of Golf forum care what people who don't follow the Rules of Golf do.

[Golfingdad]

2 minutes ago, iacas said:

I don't have none. The girl was faster when her father wasn't there to align her.

When he wasn't there.  That's not at all the same as when he's there and wants to meddle but now has to do it differently.

 

3 minutes ago, iacas said:

But I've never seen a parent adjusting their kid's alignment from the side, because I think it doesn't take much intellect to realize how fruitless that can be.

Why would they when a better alternative is still available?  Also, I think you're exaggerating the "from the side" part to make your point.  We know from the rule as it currently exists that the caddy need only take a step off to the side to be off the players line.

Based on that, do you think it's really that much of a stretch to think that the liner-uppers would just continue to try and do the best they could from 2 feet off to the side and a few feet further back?  I don't.

[iacas]

22 minutes ago, Golfingdad said:

Based on that, do you think it's really that much of a stretch to think that the liner-uppers would just continue to try and do the best they could from 2 feet off to the side and a few feet further back?  I don't.

I do, and think you're now being pretty absurd here.

As I said earlier, even a camera that's a foot from being in the right position often badly skews things. You've seen it. These kids aren't suffering from horrible aim like your nephew - they're pretty close. They're tournament players. They play plenty of rounds without their fathers caddying for them, and if they learned that they could line themselves up, and risked potential penalties if their parents got close to their line, I think they'd stay away entirely. Not without exception, but by and large, yes. It's not like caddies right now stand very close to the line when their player makes a swing. They move quite a bit away so there's no doubt that they weren't on the line.

And, again, this is not my only reason for my supporting this.

So drop it now, because you're speculating, and I'm speculating too, and this is going nowhere (I too am dropping it).

[bkuehn1952]

I voted "Yes", modify the Rule in hopes that this practice stops.  None of us will lose any sleep over whether this change occurs or not but I don't like the increasing use of caddies to line up their players.   

[Valleygolfer]

http://www.golfchannel.com/news/golf-central-blog/kim-draws-attention-growing-alignment-debate/?cid=Email_TuesdayNL_20160119

 

I think this is another time waster that should be banned because basically it is no different than laying a set of sticks down to line yourself up to hit.

[colin007]

i dont know why it hasnt been banned already.  its totally against the spirit of the game IMHO.

[Dan42nepa]

i gave this example on another forum but if a caddy can line up a player for putting (ex Faldo Sunneson) whats the difference?