Leave the Flagstick In (and Tend it Too)

[onthehunt526]

The guys at the course, don't leave the flagstick in if they are on the fringe. I saw 3 shots last year, hit the back of the hole and pop up in the air because they were going too fast.

I personally leave the flagstick in off the green, always.

Erik,

If your playing in a tournament, and you ask a fellow competitor to tend the flagstick, isn't a penalty on them if they don't? Even on the green?

Shane

Edited March 14, 2016 by onthehunt526

[iacas]

4 hours ago, Big Lex said:

http://www.golf.com/instruction/flag-or-out

This was a Pelz article from 2007. I don't know if there is other research on the topic. An interesting thing is that if it's leaning toward you, it helps because it causes the ball to rebound downward. (Unless it's leaning so far forward that there isn't room for a ball....but in that case you are allowed to center it).

Yeah, that URL is literally the first thing in my first post… C'mon @Big Lex, we're gonna think you're not paying attention.

The second thing links to an article from 2004… which I commented on talking about an article that (in 2004) I seem to have thought was 10-12 years old. So, mid-90s if I was right back then, or late 90s if I was off by as much as up to about seven years.

The information is old, and yet, pros still do it, and then amateurs follow suit.

2 hours ago, onthehunt526 said:

If your playing in a tournament, and you ask a fellow competitor to tend the flagstick, isn't a penalty on them if they don't? Even on the green?

 

Quote

17-1/2 

Opponent or Fellow-Competitor Declines to Attend Flagstick

Q.Does a player have any redress if he requests his opponent or a fellow-competitor to attend the flagstick for him and the opponent or fellow-competitor declines?

A.No.

 

[SavvySwede]

27 minutes ago, iacas said:

17-1/2 

Opponent or Fellow-Competitor Declines to Attend Flagstick

Q.Does a player have any redress if he requests his opponent or a fellow-competitor to attend the flagstick for him and the opponent or fellow-competitor declines?

A.No.

Weird. So could someone theoretically stand near the flagstick like they're going to pull it out but then not pull it out so their opponent receives a penalty?

[saevel25]

18 minutes ago, SavvySwede said:

Weird. So could someone theoretically stand near the flagstick like they're going to pull it out but then not pull it out so their opponent receives a penalty?

No Penalty, but much worse, 

Quote

17-3/2 Opponent or Fellow-Competitor Attending Flagstick for Player Fails to Remove It; Player's Ball Strikes Flagstick
Q.A's ball lies on the putting green. A requests B, his opponent or fellow-competitor, to attend the flagstick, and B complies. A putts and B fails to remove the flagstick. A's ball strikes the flagstick. What is the ruling?

A.If B failed to remove the flagstick for the purpose of causing A to incur a penalty, B is disqualified, in both match play and stroke play, under Rule 33-7 for taking an action contrary to the spirit of the game. In stroke play, in equity (Rule 1-4), A must replay the stroke without penalty.

You do not want to do that ;) 

[onthehunt526]

Wait a minute, so if they decline to tend the flagstick, it's no penalty on them but you get the 2 stroke penalty.

In match play, where you don't have a caddy, if me and Joe were on 17, Im one down with two to play, have a 40 footer across the green to win the hole... I ask Joe to attend the flagstick,  and he refuses... I make the putt and lose the match because it strikes the flagstick?

Edited March 15, 2016 by onthehunt526

[iacas]

5 minutes ago, onthehunt526 said:

Wait a minute, so if they decline to tend the flagstick, it's no penalty on them but you get the 2 stroke penalty.

In match play, where you don't have a caddy, if me and Joe were on 17, Im one down with two to play, have a 40 footer across the green to win the hole... he refuses to tend the flagstick... I make the putt and lose the match because it strikes the flagstick?

It's ultimately your responsibility to take the flagstick out, or to make sure someone is going to tend the flag. If they accept, they have to. They're allowed to refuse.

Let's try to stick to the topic itself, though. That's only tangentially related.

[onthehunt526]

Your right,

Back on topic... Off the green I will ALWAYS leave the flagstick in, because ultimately I have a better chance to make it with the stick in...

Erik,

Didn't Dave Pelz do a test on this around 1990? 

My other on topic question to this is, why is it a lot of amateurs don't leave the flagstick in when they can, or have it tended on the green even when they are 45 feet away?

I was watching a video, where Seve would have the pin tended as close as 15 feet.

[mvmac]

45 minutes ago, onthehunt526 said:

My other on topic question to this is, why is it a lot of amateurs don't leave the flagstick in when they can, or have it tended on the green even when they are 45 feet away?

There might be a little ego ("I'm not blind, I can see the hole") or they don't want to "bother" other players.

10 hours ago, pumaAttack said:

I can't agree with this.  The flagstick is round which means you won't always get a good bounce.  The ball can literally go firing off any direction.

So instead of just missing the putt you could hit the flagstick and have it ricochet into a nasty sidehill lie.

If the ball is going to ricochet like you described then it's going pretty fast and you are definitely better off leaving the flagstick in. Imagine how far away from the hole it would be if you took the flag out. Leaving the flagstick in is going to help you way more than it's going to hurt you.

I've also never seen a ball "fire off" in another direction, the flag usually "kills it" and the ball ends up within gimme range.

[onthehunt526]

Another thing, had happen, is I'll hit a putt from the fringe a smidge too hard (maybe 3 feet past without the stick) and the ball with jam in the hole.

[ajw426]

Any research on this other than Pelz's? I do trust him, but if there were another study that repeated his findings, then I would feel much more comfortable recommending this strategy to my mates (I already employ it).  

I can already hear the "well explain why almost every professional golfer wants the flag out when trying to hole out" response.  I would feel better having multiple sources instead of saying, "because one guy tested it 25 years ago..."

Edited March 16, 2016 by ajw426

[Lilfrier]

I leave it in for two reasons:

1. I'm lazy and hate having to pull, putt, fetch, and replace.

2. I like letting the group behind me (if there is one) see the hole placement and wind.

I think it was in my first round of the year, I had a shot go over the back of the green. I hit a rather fast chip, it clipped the flag, and it killed it to keep it close. It definitely helped. I've understood this benefit for a while now, I just haven't really played to it because it isn't much of a factor, if any. I leave it for convenience of myself and others. If it's a benefit to my game 1/10000 times, I might as well leave it. I don't see a benefit to doing otherwise.

[onthehunt526]

People taking the flagstick out when they are not required to do so, is the one thing that I don't understand. In my opinion, it helps you more than it hurts you. If you hit the flagstick, putting from the fringe, and it doesn't go in with the stick properly in the hole, it definitely wouldn't go in without the stick... 

Because if you hit the flagstick and it doesn't go in it's usually because.

1) You hit it too hard, it's capture speed is probably 3-4 feet too hard.

2) it's a smidge off line, but that's usually only a partial hit or a graze...

If you get funny looks from guys dead set against it, so be it. 

I was playing my semifinal match of the Ithaca City Golf Tournament last year. (I got creamed 7 and 5, didn't make anything on the greens all day), At the par-5 12th, I was just short of the green in three, on the collar, but closer than my opponent. He missed his birdie putt from on the green, I replaced the flagstick, and good thing I did, I hit the flagstick flush at the ball came to rest 3 inches away for a gimme par... 

I honestly wouldn't have left the flagstick out ever, the guys in the other match, tried to tell me if I left the flagstick out I would have made the putt from off the green, but I stated, I hit the putt too hard.

By rule the flagstick isn't supposed to keep the ball from going in the hole, they really are only supposed to mark the position of the hole... so they would never have too large of a diameter to allow a ball to be completely below the surface of the green.

Edited March 16, 2016 by onthehunt526

[iacas]

7 hours ago, ajw426 said:

Any research on this other than Pelz's? I do trust him, but if there were another study that repeated his findings, then I would feel much more comfortable recommending this strategy to my mates (I already employ it).

There's been no need to conduct more studies because it also makes sense.

A little dash of this…

Sprinkled with some common sense:

• A ball going too fast will not go in the hole.
• A flagstick can only deaden and thus slow down a ball.

And voilà! Common sense backed up by a basic study.

7 hours ago, ajw426 said:

I can already hear the "well explain why almost every professional golfer wants the flag out when trying to hole out" response.  I would feel better having multiple sources instead of saying, "because one guy tested it 25 years ago..."

Because sometimes pro golfers believe the same old tales, myths, legends, and superstitions everyone else has.

[pumaAttack]

3 hours ago, iacas said:

There's been no need to conduct more studies because it also makes sense.

A little dash of this…

Sprinkled with some common sense:

• A ball going too fast will not go in the hole.
• A flagstick can only deaden and thus slow down a ball.

And voilà! Common sense backed up by a basic study.

Because sometimes pro golfers believe the same old tales, myths, legends, and superstitions everyone else has.

 

Yet they are on the PGA Tour and we aren't...   

[iacas]

11 minutes ago, pumaAttack said:

Yet they are on the PGA Tour and we aren't...   

So that means their decisions are bulletproof? No. They do dumb things too. They succumb to following the same myths and legends and folklore just like regular golfers. If their livelihood truly depended on whether they left the flagstick in or out, they'd find out quickly which was actually best (leaving it in) and do that.

Their skill at hitting the golf ball and getting it to go into the hole is an entirely different subject than whether they understand the odds behind this once-every-hundred-rounds (or whatever) type of occurrence.

[phillyk]

While I agree with the study and common sense of it, I take it out to read the green.  If I'm behind the hole looking at my ball and the pin is in, it bothers the heck out of me (or if it casts a shadow over the line, it bothers me) and throws me off. So I take it out and it usually stays out at that point unless I can't see the hole.  If I play in a tournament, I'd probably put it back in to be safe.  But, in recreational rounds, I don't think I'd care enough for the random occurrence of hitting the pin to help me.

Edited March 16, 2016 by phillyk

[pumaAttack]

12 minutes ago, iacas said:

So that means their decisions are bulletproof? No. They do dumb things too. They succumb to following the same myths and legends and folklore just like regular golfers. If their livelihood truly depended on whether they left the flagstick in or out, they'd find out quickly which was actually best (leaving it in) and do that.

Their skill at hitting the golf ball and getting it to go into the hole is an entirely different subject than whether they understand the odds behind this once-every-hundred-rounds (or whatever) type of occurrence.

 

Maybe, just maybe, there is more to golf than science alone?  

That maybe a hole without a flag stick, which takes up a large part of the hole, allows the golfer to visualize the shot going in better?  

Just saying they are on the tour and we aren't, not sure any of us are in a position to call them dumb for doing things that got them there.   

 

[jamo]

11 minutes ago, pumaAttack said:

 

Maybe, just maybe, there is more to golf than science alone?  

That maybe a hole without a flag stick, which takes up a large part of the hole, allows the golfer to visualize the shot going in better?  

Just saying they are on the tour and we aren't, not sure any of us are in a position to call them dumb for doing things that got them there.   

 

You can play your whole life, earn your PGA Tour card, and only have gained or lost let's say 10 strokes ever because of whether or not you left the pin in. It's not "what got them there" any more than it's what's holding you back.