Leave the Flagstick In (and Tend it Too)

[BaldTexan]

I don't know if this has been mentioned or not.  I think in the late 50s or early 60s was when the USGA  changed the rule and made it a two stroke penalty to hit the pin if the ball is on the green.

My thought on this is that rarely (if ever) the USGA changed or added rules to make the game easier.  Not sure why they did this unless they thought having the pin in made it easier to putt than not

Just my worthless .02$ opinion.

BTW I only remove the pin when required by the rules.

[Golfingdad]

1 hour ago, dchoye said:

Here's one interesting study data I found that answers part of that question.

Testing 300 balls traveling at medium pace to the middle of the hole .Type of flagstick makes a huge difference ,depending on the type of flagstick  67%, 72% or 0% of the balls tested will go into the hole after hitting the pin.

http://archive.lib.msu.edu/tic/holen/article/2008jun22.pdf

 

 

37 minutes ago, bkuehn1952 said:

Wow, you are absolutely right that the study produced interesting results.  I wonder if anyone ever determined why the "1 inch" stick rejected every ball?  The area struck was tapered to the same 1/2 inch diameter as the other 2 stick versions so the obvious answer of a wider stick is not correct. 

I will have to start bringing a yard stick with me!   

That is fascinating, but it doesn't really do anything for this topic.  They didn't test any balls without the flagstick so there is nothing to compare it to.  Perhaps at the speed they tested, 100% of the balls zip across the top of the hole?

[iacas]

2 hours ago, Golfingdad said:

That is fascinating, but it doesn't really do anything for this topic.  They didn't test any balls without the flagstick so there is nothing to compare it to.  Perhaps at the speed they tested, 100% of the balls zip across the top of the hole?

I imagine that's true.

A stimp meter (which might roll the ball 10 feet on those greens?) is only 30" from the end, and the angle almost seems to be about the same. Those balls probably weren't going in the hole without the flagstick in there at all. So there's about a 70% success rate, and obviously those that didn't go in (even with the weird flagstick) stayed significantly closer than rolling, what, 15-20 feet past the hole???

 

[mvmac]

5 hours ago, iacas said:

So there's about a 70% success rate, and obviously those that didn't go in (even with the weird flagstick) stayed significantly closer than rolling, what, 15-20 feet past the hole???

Right, worst case if the flagstick is in is that you have a tap-in, worst case if you take it out is you're left with a 10ft, 15ft or 20ft putt.

[boogielicious]

15 hours ago, BaldTexan said:

I don't know if this has been mentioned or not.  I think in the late 50s or early 60s was when the USGA  changed the rule and made it a two stroke penalty to hit the pin if the ball is on the green.

My thought on this is that rarely (if ever) the USGA changed or added rules to make the game easier.  Not sure why they did this unless they thought having the pin in made it easier to putt than not

Just my worthless .02$ opinion.

BTW I only remove the pin when required by the rules.

Looks like 1968 when the final change occurred. I remember seeing videos of Arnie where the flagstick was in.

http://www.ruleshistory.com/green.html

 

[saevel25]

I was watching the Arnold Invitational and one of the guys had a chip that went 360 around the pin and fell in. No issue with the pin interfering with a ball that might lip out. 

[jsgolfer]

I always leave it in, I'll take the advantage, no matter how slight any chance I can.

[iacas]

 

[billchao]

Played a round with @nevets88 last Friday and he holed a bunker shot that reminded me of this thread. His ball hit the green and had to roll down a tier, picking up speed along the way. Then it hit the flagstick dead center and dropped straight into the hole. If it wasn't there, the ball was probably going to roll 8' past the hole.

Funniest part of it is he didn't even see it. He was so disgusted with his play on that hole that he wasn't even looking.

[boogielicious]

10 hours ago, billchao said:

Played a round with @nevets88 last Friday and he holed a bunker shot that reminded me of this thread. His ball hit the green and had to roll down a tier, picking up speed along the way. Then it hit the flagstick dead center and dropped straight into the hole. If it wasn't there, the ball was probably going to roll 8' past the hole.

Funniest part of it is he didn't even see it. He was so disgusted with his play on that hole that he wasn't even looking.

I had a similar pitch. It didn't go in, but stopped the ball for an easy tap in.

[nevets88]

11 hours ago, billchao said:

Played a round with @nevets88 last Friday and he holed a bunker shot that reminded me of this thread. His ball hit the green and had to roll down a tier, picking up speed along the way. Then it hit the flagstick dead center and dropped straight into the hole. If it wasn't there, the ball was probably going to roll 8' past the hole.

Funniest part of it is he didn't even see it. He was so disgusted with his play on that hole that he wasn't even looking.

Yeah, it's an 8 instead of a 10. Yippee.   As they say, whip cream on you know what. Sorry for the visual.  But, bottom line, the strategy did net me two strokes, so it works! Will eventually take vengeance on that hole.

[billchao]

2 hours ago, boogielicious said:

I had a similar pitch. It didn't go in, but stopped the ball for an easy tap in.

I once hit a flagstick from the bunker about 4' off the ground and the ball dropped down next to it. Easy par 

[iacas]

That ball was almost certainly not going to go in without the flagstick in the hole. It was traveling too fast.

The misinformation about the flagstick being in continues…

[jkelley9]

I'm sold on leaving the flag stick in when off the green, and tending when far away but on the green. 

I'm going to make up numbers here, but if the increased chances of a make are 2% from leaving the stick in, the psychological and other factors that could affect your shot (mentioned elsewhere in this thread) would probably be more in the realm of ~0.5% or less. Pick the bigger number, especially since it has nothing to do with actual ball striking, swing, or club choice. It's virtually a gimme stat increase (albeit very small).

[DaveP043]

I'd been on the fence for a long time, generally taking the pin out only when I was coming from the fringe, relatively close to the hole.  In those cases, I felt I had enough speed control that the pin couldn't help me, and could only hurt.  Since this spring, I've left it in every time I was allowed to.  I've chipped in a few times with the pin in, but I'd have left the pin in anyways.  I've had none of the "borderline" situations, where I would have removed the pin, where I've actually hit it.  Based on this comparatively small sample, I'm thinking that although leaving the pin in is the statistical right choice, the frequency of it making a difference is really small, maybe a couple of times per year.  

On the other hand, one of my fellow competitors over the weekend had the pin out whenever he was chipping or pitching, from 20 yards or more at times.  To me, that was a foolish choice, even without having read this thread.

[iacas]

5 hours ago, DaveP043 said:

I'd been on the fence for a long time, generally taking the pin out only when I was coming from the fringe, relatively close to the hole.  In those cases, I felt I had enough speed control that the pin couldn't help me, and could only hurt.  Since this spring, I've left it in every time I was allowed to.  I've chipped in a few times with the pin in, but I'd have left the pin in anyways.  I've had none of the "borderline" situations, where I would have removed the pin, where I've actually hit it.  Based on this comparatively small sample, I'm thinking that although leaving the pin in is the statistical right choice, the frequency of it making a difference is really small, maybe a couple of times per year.

As I've posted before, it happens more to better players.

I've posted about how I've kept track, and while I'll see more holes played than you do in 18 holes, I'll routinely see 10+ situations in watching my college kids play golf (with their fellow competitors) where the ball does or would hit the flagstick (if it was still in). It happens a lot more frequently for better players.

Since you leave it in for chips, you're immediately discounting those times, of course. So it happens a fair amount to you, too.

The general rule: only take the flagstick out if it's leaning in such a way that the ball won't fit. If you want to give me the "it gives me confidence to take it out" excuse, simply derive more confidence from the fact that leaving it in gives you a better chance.

P.S. That last part is directed at all, not specifically at Dave.

[DaveP043]

9 minutes ago, iacas said:

As I've posted before, it happens more to better players.

I've posted about how I've kept track, and while I'll see more holes played than you do in 18 holes, I'll routinely see 10+ situations in watching my college kids play golf (with their fellow competitors) where the ball does or would hit the flagstick (if it was still in). It happens a lot more frequently for better players.

Since you leave it in for chips, you're immediately discounting those times, of course. So it happens a fair amount to you, too.

You're right, I do hit the flagstick semi-regularly, and even before March I left it in almost all of the time.  The shots where I've changed my previous practice amount to maybe 5% or less of all of the times when I'm chipping or pitching or putting from the fringe.  So far, I haven't hit the stick in any of those situations.  And I know that I could end up on the wrong end of the statistics the first time it happens, but I'll keep doing the statistically correct thing.  And BTW, I haven't felt any loss of confidence based on leaving the stick in, as I thought might be the case for some players, including myself.  Even old guys like me can learn a thing or two sometimes.

[Golfingdad]

5 hours ago, DaveP043 said:

I'd been on the fence for a long time,

I still am ... at least in regards to whether the ball would fall into the hole more often with or without it.  I'm not convinced that Luitens shot wouldn't have fallen had the pin not been there.  And when I'm on the putting green I have putts occasionally that bounce off the pin similarly that I believe would have fallen in had the pin not been there.  It's kind of hard to prove either way since I can't repeat the exact same putt both with and without the flagstick. ;)

But, either way, I still leave it in for all except the shortest (and flat or uphill) putts from the fringe.  Even if it's not increasing the make chances, it will (on those rare occasions I actually hit it) likely decrease the length of my next shot.  I had a pitch Friday that I hit much too hard and would have skated right over the top of the hole and finished 20 feet away were it not for the flagstick.  (It mattered not, because I missed the 8 footer it left me anyway, but hey ...)

---

Somewhat off-topic anecdote:  Also on Friday, my dad had about a 20-25 yard pitch that he bladed, and it hit the stick about 2/3 of the way up so squarely that it catapulted back toward him (45 degrees to his right) and off the green ... still 15-20 yards away.  His next chip also hit the flag (the side of it as it lipped out), and left him with a 12 footer or so, which he also missed.  I wonder how many people can say they've hit the flagstick on consecutive shots on the same hole and still needed two more to hole out afterwards?