Leave the Flagstick In (and Tend it Too)

[bkuehn1952]

I recall reading, long ago, that Pelz had concluded that a chip hit to an uphill hole was a wash as respects flag stick in or flag stick out.  I believe he did two studies and perhaps that conclusion was reached in the first (less thorough??) study.

In an uphill chip, one has the higher back edge, which is softer than the flag stick.  With the flag stick in, one does not hit the back edge.  It may be that this creates the "wash" result for "in or out" on uphill shots.  And it certainly makes the "rule" easier to follow when there is only one exception (leaning/moving flagstick).

In any event, "flag in" makes sense in that it is backed up with a study, whether flawed or not. 

 

[iacas]

1 hour ago, bkuehn1952 said:

I recall reading, long ago, that Pelz had concluded that a chip hit to an uphill hole was a wash as respects flag stick in or flag stick out.  I believe he did two studies and perhaps that conclusion was reached in the first (less thorough??) study.

In an uphill chip, one has the higher back edge, which is softer than the flag stick.  With the flag stick in, one does not hit the back edge.  It may be that this creates the "wash" result for "in or out" on uphill shots.  And it certainly makes the "rule" easier to follow when there is only one exception (leaning/moving flagstick).

I believe that his studies have included shots to holes on uphill and downhill slopes, and even the uphill ones showed a sizable advantage for leaving the flagstick in.

On most greens  flags are set in areas with 2% slope, so let's assume a 4% slope (the highest % slope the AimPoint charts went to, because even at 4% a five-footer breaks 11 inches on a stimp 10 green.

So 4% slope over 4.25" means the back lip is a whopping… 0.17 inches higher than the front lip. And that's of course only if you hit the exact dead middle of the cup. And remember that's if the flag is cut in a 4% slope and you hit the dead middle… I think the flagstick still gives you the advantage, and you could prove that empirically as well. Balls rolled at the center of the cup that would otherwise miss will hit the flagstick and go in.

Note that your definition of "sizable" may be different than mine. I simply mean one that is worth paying attention to. And of course, you have to hit the flagstick at least a little for the flagstick to even matter. We've all seen chips lip out that don't hit the flagstick at all.

[bkuehn1952]

The one other thing that came to mind when reading the Pelz article was the lack of data.  I do not doubt that statistically "flag in" makes sense.  What I wonder is how much?  Mr. Pelz could have put in a small chart or said something to the effect: "if 100 uphill chips are hit at varying speeds and at varying contact points of the hole, 70 go in with the flag in and only 59 do so with the flag out."  

That kind of statistic is more convincing to me, and possibly others, than a blanket statement, "Leave the flag stick in, more balls will be holed."

The above statement is still true if the numbers are 700 of 1,000 go in with the flag stick in and 698 go in without the flag.  For someone like me, 1-2 more holed out chips in a lifetime of golf starts to approach irrelevance.

At the end of the day, I have taken Mr. Pelz's advice and leave the flag in whenever that is an option, provided it is not leaning too much.

[Golfingdad]

2 minutes ago, bkuehn1952 said:

The one other thing that came to mind when reading the Pelz article was the lack of data.  I do not doubt that statistically "flag in" makes sense.  What I wonder is how much?  Mr. Pelz could have put in a small chart or said something to the effect: "if 100 uphill chips are hit at varying speeds and at varying contact points of the hole, 70 go in with the flag in and only 59 do so with the flag out."  

That kind of statistic is more convincing to me, and possibly others, than a blanket statement, "Leave the flag stick in, more balls will be holed."

The above statement is still true if the numbers are 700 of 1,000 go in with the flag stick in and 698 go in without the flag.  For someone like me, 1-2 more holed out chips in a lifetime of golf starts to approach irrelevance.

At the end of the day, I have taken Mr. Pelz's advice and leave the flag in whenever that is an option, provided it is not leaning too much.

Well said.

[DaveP043]

11 minutes ago, bkuehn1952 said:

The above statement is still true if the numbers are 700 of 1,000 go in with the flag stick in and 698 go in without the flag.  For someone like me, 1-2 more holed out chips in a lifetime of golf starts to approach irrelevance.

The flip side to this argument is that if THIS chip shot is one of those two better results, I want it to go in.  

[bkuehn1952]

27 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

The flip side to this argument is that if THIS chip shot is one of those two better results, I want it to go in.  

I hear you,  With my luck, it would be holed for a "10" on the 18th hole for a tidy 97.

[iacas]

35 minutes ago, bkuehn1952 said:

The one other thing that came to mind when reading the Pelz article was the lack of data.

The Pelz "article" you're referring to was a recap of the article he wrote years before. He sent tens of thousands of balls toward the hole. He has the data somewhere, I believe.

35 minutes ago, bkuehn1952 said:

Mr. Pelz could have put in a small chart or said something to the effect: "if 100 uphill chips are hit at varying speeds and at varying contact points of the hole, 70 go in with the flag in and only 59 do so with the flag out."

I'm fairly certain his original article had the data. Rather than speculate, why not just ask him? Or conduct a study of your own?

35 minutes ago, bkuehn1952 said:

The above statement is still true if the numbers are 700 of 1,000 go in with the flag stick in and 698 go in without the flag.  For someone like me, 1-2 more holed out chips in a lifetime of golf starts to approach irrelevance.

The numbers are not that small. Leaving the flagstick in helps significantly. Obviously if you are not as good at golf that you rarely hit the ball near the hole on your short game shots, it matters less. But in the last 10 days I've seen six balls hit the flagstick from off the green. Four went in (one dripped in so it was going in regardless), one stopped six inches away (it was trucking), and one hit the stick off a bladed chip and stopped five feet from the hole instead of going into the water behind the green.

The data exists, so either find it or don't fill the vacuum you feel exists by conjuring up your own statistics. 1-2 in a lifetime? I saw triple that in the last 10 days. Granted, they were almost all decent golfers (my college team in Myrtle Beach, and one was actually my daughter Natalie's at WWGC).

35 minutes ago, bkuehn1952 said:

At the end of the day, I have taken Mr. Pelz's advice and leave the flag in whenever that is an option, provided it is not leaning too much.

Good.

---

Tell you what… Two things:

• Next week I'll conduct my own study downtown at Golf Evolution.
• I'll write to Dave Pelz and see if he has the data.

[boogielicious]

FWIW, I've chipped in a number of times, maybe 12. All of them had the flagstick it. I've also hit the flag stick numerous times. I don't take it out especially after reading LSW.

[bkuehn1952]

4 minutes ago, iacas said:

 

Tell you what… Two things:

• Next week I'll conduct my own study downtown at Golf Evolution.
• I'll write to Dave Pelz and see if he has the data.

Great!  Thanks.

[mvmac]

Thanks to leaving the flagstick in, I holed a 40-45ft putt today from the fringe 

The putt was hit too hard but was fortunate to hit the stick which "killed it", then it hung on the lip for a 1/2 second and it toppled in on the right side of the hole. Even if the putt hadn't gone in I still would have been next to the hole. No way I would have been that close (or holed it) if I took the flagstick out.

[Club Rat]

10 hours ago, mvmac said:

I holed a 40-45ft putt

 "Luck of the Irish". 

[DaveP043]

10 hours ago, mvmac said:

Thanks to leaving the flagstick in, I holed a 40-45ft putt today from the fringe 

The putt was hit too hard but was fortunate to hit the stick which "killed it", then it hung on the lip for a 1/2 second and it toppled in on the right side of the hole. Even if the putt hadn't gone in I still would have been next to the hole. No way I would have been that close (or holed it) if I took the flagstick out.

As any statistician will tell you, a single instance can't prove or disprove the conclusion.  On the other hand, I holed a downhill chip last weekend that, if it hadn't hit the flag, almost certainly would have rolled off the other side of the green.  Good shootin' for both of us! 

[dchoye]

23 hours ago, bkuehn1952 said:

The one other thing that came to mind when reading the Pelz article was the lack of data.  I do not doubt that statistically "flag in" makes sense.  What I wonder is how much?  Mr. Pelz could have put in a small chart or said something to the effect: "if 100 uphill chips are hit at varying speeds and at varying contact points of the hole, 70 go in with the flag in and only 59 do so with the flag out."  

That kind of statistic is more convincing to me, and possibly others, than a blanket statement, "Leave the flag stick in, more balls will be holed."

The above statement is still true if the numbers are 700 of 1,000 go in with the flag stick in and 698 go in without the flag.  For someone like me, 1-2 more holed out chips in a lifetime of golf starts to approach irrelevance.

At the end of the day, I have taken Mr. Pelz's advice and leave the flag in whenever that is an option, provided it is not leaning too much.

That would work for me too.

I was reading a online story from greenskeeper who had used newly bought  flagsticks for the club and by the end of the season he had many complaints from the members that the new flagstick material was too hard and causing too many chip balls to bounce out. I cant remember exactly what type but  I think it had more aluminum than fiberglass at the bottom of the pinstick and likely wasn't absorbing some of the energy.

They demanded the old flagsticks back.

 

[Golfingdad]

1 hour ago, DaveP043 said:

As any statistician will tell you, a single instance can't prove or disprove the conclusion.

Speaking of that, I have a question for everybody:  Is it at all possible for a (rolling*) ball to be kept out of the hole by a flagstick that is not leaning towards you?

*The asterisk is because when you watch those super slo-mo videos of putts, even the shortest and slowest are frequently bouncing all the way to the hole.

[iacas]

2 minutes ago, Golfingdad said:

Speaking of that, I have a question for everybody:  Is it at all possible for a (rolling*) ball to be kept out of the hole by a flagstick that is not leaning towards you?

*The asterisk is because when you watch those super slo-mo videos of putts, even the shortest and slowest are frequently bouncing all the way to the hole.

It's a sucker who would say "not possible." But I suspect you could easily demonstrate it to be highly unlikely and far less frequent than it helping.

Also, no flagstick is made of a material that results in perfectly elastic collisions.

[dchoye]

3 hours ago, Golfingdad said:

Speaking of that, I have a question for everybody:  Is it at all possible for a (rolling*) ball to be kept out of the hole by a flagstick that is not leaning towards you?

*The asterisk is because when you watch those super slo-mo videos of putts, even the shortest and slowest are frequently bouncing all the way to the hole.

I suppose if the rolling ball is rolling too fast and hits the side of the pin and ricochets at an angle.

Even balls rolling dead straight at high speed may not go in even if hit square at the middle of the pin.

If what you are asking is if the speed of ball is perfect and would otherwise go into the hole without the pin does the pin deflect the ball out? I think it could very well be possible.

 

Edited March 18, 2016 by dchoye

[dchoye]

4 hours ago, Golfingdad said:

Speaking of that, I have a question for everybody:  Is it at all possible for a (rolling*) ball to be kept out of the hole by a flagstick that is not leaning towards you?

*The asterisk is because when you watch those super slo-mo videos of putts, even the shortest and slowest are frequently bouncing all the way to the hole.

Here's one interesting study data I found that answers part of that question.

Testing 300 balls traveling at medium pace to the middle of the hole .Type of flagstick makes a huge difference ,depending on the type of flagstick  67%, 72% or 0% of the balls tested will go into the hole after hitting the pin.

http://archive.lib.msu.edu/tic/holen/article/2008jun22.pdf

 

[bkuehn1952]

19 minutes ago, dchoye said:

Here's one interesting study data I found that answers part of that question.

Wow, you are absolutely right that the study produced interesting results.  I wonder if anyone ever determined why the "1 inch" stick rejected every ball?  The area struck was tapered to the same 1/2 inch diameter as the other 2 stick versions so the obvious answer of a wider stick is not correct. 

I will have to start bringing a yard stick with me!