Throwback question is today's low spin equipment making it to easy for Tour players?

[Mike Boatright]

When it comes to shot shaping and hitting irons shots today's pro's have proven that they have talent and essentially play with the same clubs as 80 years ago. The driver and 3 woods are the real issue 370 yard drives down wind and consistently getting 30 yards plus roll on firm fairways with 340 yard bombs. It sets up a lot of easy birdies for the majority of pro's and the long players like day just make it a pitch and putt. I was watching the world match play today and it was a 135 yard par 3 into a cross wind! This hole was fun to watch the guys struggled with it a lot and was an actual golf hole. There is no reason golf can't be like that on 15 out of 18 holes were talking 412 yard holes set up to be hard that maximizes skill vs bomb it and clip it close. There are no grooves on drivers the players are hitting it to far and it needs to be rolled back to 1992 specs. The drivers should have a spin limit and cc limit grooves required and the ball should be set back as well. 300 yards should be long again and a 260 player can compete just like when golf was golf not whatever the game these guys are playing which is akin to a home run derby. As far as the rest of equipment can stay the same game improvement irons are fine and amateur's can play with a 460 cc ping g30 if they wan't but a serious player will want to play with balata type pro  v 1 balls and persimmon size 200 cc head with grooves non titanium. I have no problem losing 20 yards If I know im actually testing my game vs how many fairways I hit with my gorilla driver.

[boogielicious]

 

When it comes to shot shaping and hitting irons shots today's pro's have proven that they have talent and essentially play with the same clubs as 80 years ago. The driver and 3 woods are the real issue 370 yard drives down wind and consistently getting 30 yards plus roll on firm fairways with 340 yard bombs. It sets up a lot of easy birdies for the majority of pro's and the long players like day just make it a pitch and putt. I was watching the world match play today and it was a 135 yard par 3 into a cross wind! This hole was fun to watch the guys struggled with it a lot and was an actual golf hole. There is no reason golf can't be like that on 15 out of 18 holes were talking 412 yard holes set up to be hard that maximizes skill vs bomb it and clip it close. There are no grooves on drivers the players are hitting it to far and it needs to be rolled back to 1992 specs. The drivers should have a spin limit and cc limit grooves required and the ball should be set back as well. 300 yards should be long again and a 260 player can compete just like when golf was golf not whatever the game these guys are playing which is akin to a home run derby. As far as the rest of equipment can stay the same game improvement irons are fine and amateur's can play with a 460 cc ping g30 if they wan't but a serious player will want to play with balata type pro  v 1 balls and persimmon size 200 cc head with grooves non titanium. I have no problem losing 20 yards If I know im actually testing my game vs how many fairways I hit with my gorilla driver.

We've had this discussion in many other threads. If you roll back, you stifle the innovation which is the basis of the golf industry. This would put many people out of jobs.

One last thing. Please learn to use paragraphs. Large, unformatted groups of sentences become very tedious to read. We refer to is as a "wall of words". Many will not read you posts because of this.

[newtogolf]

Professional sports is supposed to represent the best of the best.  I doubt many people would be interested in watching pro's playing rolled back equipment that puts their distances to relatively the same or less distances as good amateurs.  Tony Finau is averaging 316.3 yards on his drives, not every drive goes 370 yards plus.  

If you want to watch good golfers hit the ball shorter distances watch the LPGA and Champions Tour.  

[Ernest Jones]

 

One last thing. Please learn to use paragraphs. Large, unformatted groups of sentences become very tedious to read. We refer to is as a "wall of words". Many will not read you posts because of this.

Paragraphs??? I'd settle for some punctuation...

[Rainmaker]

If you watch enough golf on TV, you'll notice that many courses are set up pretty "easy" and the winning score will be 18 under or even more . .and at other tournaments, the courses are set up much tougher and the winning score might be more like 10 under . .or even par at a few of them. 

There are definitely way more tournaments where the course is set up for scoring and I think that just reflects what more people want to see.  You and I might want to see the pros battle it out and struggle to finish even on Sunday . . many more want to see long bomb drives and lots of birdies. 

Man, I love the tough tournaments, though.  Most of them, anyway . .some of them, like the Valero Texas Open are tough because they are played on wacky golf courses.      

 

 

 

 

 

 

[boogielicious]

6 minutes ago, Rainmaker said:

If you watch enough golf on TV, you'll notice that many courses are set up pretty "easy" and the winning score will be 18 under or even more . .and at other tournaments, the courses are set up much tougher and the winning score might be more like 10 under . .or even par at a few of them. 

There are definitely way more tournaments where the course is set up for scoring and I think that just reflects what more people want to see.  You and I might want to see the pros battle it out and struggle to finish even on Sunday . . many more want to see long bomb drives and lots of birdies. 

Man, I love the tough tournaments, though.  Most of them, anyway . .some of them, like the Valero Texas Open are tough because they are played on wacky golf courses.      

 

 

 

 

 

 

Good post. I agree. The PGA can set up courses to make them very difficult regardless of driver length off the tee. But they also want to set up risk/reward situations. They don't want to penalize the long hitters all the time.

[iacas]

No need IMO.

[saevel25]

6 hours ago, Mike Boatright said:

 It sets up a lot of easy birdies for the majority of pro's and the long players like day just make it a pitch and putt.

The average approach shot distance is 165 yards. That is hardly a pitch.

The fact is there are a ton of good golfers who can any weekend get on a roll for four rounds to put in a very low winning score.

6 hours ago, Mike Boatright said:

There are no grooves on drivers the players are hitting it to far and it needs to be rolled back to 1992 specs.

Actually Brigdestone has proven that adding milled grooves to a driver reduces spin.

I disagree with your 1992 specs demand. I think that would be a detriment to the golfing community. The fact is that PGA tour players are more athletic, they produce much more efficient golf swings and are able to hit the ball farther.

6 hours ago, Mike Boatright said:

The drivers should have a spin limit and cc limit grooves required and the ball should be set back as well. 300 yards should be long again and a 260 player can compete just like when golf was golf not whatever the game these guys are playing which is akin to a home run derby.

Why should we handicap the longer hitters because of their advantage?

6 hours ago, Mike Boatright said:

I have no problem losing 20 yards If I know im actually testing my game vs how many fairways I hit with my gorilla driver.

Golf is hard enough. There is no need to change the technology. There isn't any significant reason to do so.

[ppine]

Golf will be never be an easy game.  PGA courses keep getting longer.  The hole locations are nearly impossible for the average golfer.  I do like to watch the Masters and the US Open especially though because the courses are so tough. It is an amazing thing to watch Tiger hit a putt from 20 feet that rolls off the green and is then 30 feet from hole.

[Fourputt]

I voted "No" based on the topic, but I did not read his unformatted mass of words.  

I don't see that the overall numbers are that much different among the leaders than they have been over the last 25 or more years.  Some courses and some tournaments are set up for low numbers, others aren't.  I usually only watch the ones on the better courses that attract the better fields.

[Mike Boatright]

9 hours ago, Rainmaker said:

If you watch enough golf on TV, you'll notice that many courses are set up pretty "easy" and the winning score will be 18 under or even more . .and at other tournaments, the courses are set up much tougher and the winning score might be more like 10 under . .or even par at a few of them. 

There are definitely way more tournaments where the course is set up for scoring and I think that just reflects what more people want to see.  You and I might want to see the pros battle it out and struggle to finish even on Sunday . . many more want to see long bomb drives and lots of birdies. 

Man, I love the tough tournaments, though.  Most of them, anyway . .some of them, like the Valero Texas Open are tough because they are played on wacky golf courses.      

 

Yes I agree it's for entertainment purposes and making the game golf again would probably draw less spectators and revenue.

9 hours ago, Rainmaker said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

7 hours ago, Fourputt said:

I voted "No" based on the topic, but I did not read his unformatted mass of words.  

I don't see that the overall numbers are that much different among the leaders than they have been over the last 25 or more years.  Some courses and some tournaments are set up for low numbers, others aren't.  I usually only watch the ones on the better courses that attract the better fields.

 

8 hours ago, saevel25 said:

The average approach shot distance is 165 yards. That is hardly a pitch.

The fact is there are a ton of good golfers who can any weekend get on a roll for four rounds to put in a very low winning score.

Actually Brigdestone has proven that adding milled grooves to a driver reduces spin.

I disagree with your 1992 specs demand. I think that would be a detriment to the golfing community. The fact is that PGA tour players are more athletic, they produce much more efficient golf swings and are able to hit the ball farther.

Why should we handicap the longer hitters because of their advantage?

Golf is hard enough. There is no need to change the technology. There isn't any significant reason to do so.

There isn't from a business perspective but as far as the game is concerned it would be for the betterment on the professional level. You think old timey players were bad athletes I would disagree sir!

[natureboy]

8 hours ago, Fourputt said:

I voted "No" based on the topic, but I did not read his unformatted mass of words.  

I don't see that the overall numbers are that much different among the leaders than they have been over the last 25 or more years.  Some courses and some tournaments are set up for low numbers, others aren't.  I usually only watch the ones on the better courses that attract the better fields.

Sure there's still a lot of similar ranges of scores, but it doesn't mean there isn't a trend.

[Patch]

I don't think today's equipment is helping the pros that much. They are shooting pretty much the same scores from 5-10+ years ago. Maybe a little better. The same pros are still playing better than the other, less talented pros with basically the same equipment.

[saevel25]

1 hour ago, Mike Boatright said:

There isn't from a business perspective but as far as the game is concerned it would be for the betterment on the professional level.

Why? 

1 hour ago, Mike Boatright said:

 You think old timey players were bad athletes I would disagree sir!

The fact is there are more good golfers now then there was back in the day. Jack played against club professionals or whoever they could find to fill out a tournament field. Today we have the mini-tours. People are fighting and clawing their way into tournaments just to have a shot. They are not calling up their local pro's to try to fill out the field. 

I would say the top level players back in the day were pretty good athletes. Jack Nicklaus was recruited to play football for Ohio State. I would say there are way more athletes playing golf today then there were back in the day. 

[SavvySwede]

15 hours ago, Mike Boatright said:

When it comes to shot shaping and hitting irons shots today's pro's have proven that they have talent and essentially play with the same clubs as 80 years ago. The driver and 3 woods are the real issue 370 yard drives down wind and consistently getting 30 yards plus roll on firm fairways with 340 yard bombs. It sets up a lot of easy birdies for the majority of pro's and the long players like day just make it a pitch and putt. I was watching the world match play today and it was a 135 yard par 3 into a cross wind! This hole was fun to watch the guys struggled with it a lot and was an actual golf hole. There is no reason golf can't be like that on 15 out of 18 holes were talking 412 yard holes set up to be hard that maximizes skill vs bomb it and clip it close. There are no grooves on drivers the players are hitting it to far and it needs to be rolled back to 1992 specs. The drivers should have a spin limit and cc limit grooves required and the ball should be set back as well. 300 yards should be long again and a 260 player can compete just like when golf was golf not whatever the game these guys are playing which is akin to a home run derby. As far as the rest of equipment can stay the same game improvement irons are fine and amateur's can play with a 460 cc ping g30 if they wan't but a serious player will want to play with balata type pro  v 1 balls and persimmon size 200 cc head with grooves non titanium. I have no problem losing 20 yards If I know im actually testing my game vs how many fairways I hit with my gorilla driver.

Your 260 player isn't competing no matter what you do. The average swingspeed on the PGA Tour has gone up and the game has become more athletic. That advantage isn't going away whether they are hitting persimmons or titanium.

[Pretzel]

5 minutes ago, SavvySwede said:

Your 260 player isn't competing no matter what you do. The average swingspeed on the PGA Tour has gone up and the game has become more athletic. That advantage isn't going away whether they are hitting persimmons or titanium.

This: The person who hits it 260 with the modern equipment has absolutely no hope if they roll back equipment without also changing every single course in the nation to match the equipment. 

[InTheRough]

16 hours ago, Mike Boatright said:

When it comes to shot shaping and hitting irons shots today's pro's have proven that they have talent and essentially play with the same clubs as 80 years ago. The driver and 3 woods are the real issue 370 yard drives down wind and consistently getting 30 yards plus roll on firm fairways with 340 yard bombs. It sets up a lot of easy birdies for the majority of pro's and the long players like day just make it a pitch and putt. I was watching the world match play today and it was a 135 yard par 3 into a cross wind! This hole was fun to watch the guys struggled with it a lot and was an actual golf hole. There is no reason golf can't be like that on 15 out of 18 holes were talking 412 yard holes set up to be hard that maximizes skill vs bomb it and clip it close. There are no grooves on drivers the players are hitting it to far and it needs to be rolled back to 1992 specs. The drivers should have a spin limit and cc limit grooves required and the ball should be set back as well. 300 yards should be long again and a 260 player can compete just like when golf was golf not whatever the game these guys are playing which is akin to a home run derby. As far as the rest of equipment can stay the same game improvement irons are fine and amateur's can play with a 460 cc ping g30 if they wan't but a serious player will want to play with balata type pro  v 1 balls and persimmon size 200 cc head with grooves non titanium. I have no problem losing 20 yards If I know im actually testing my game vs how many fairways I hit with my gorilla driver.

Golf fans are ridiculous.  We talk and talk about how modern players are all dedicated to practicing, fitness, and strength and how the top golfers in the world are now true athletes, and then we act all surprised when they are able to hit the ball further then the players who would smoke a cigarette while walking down the first fairway.  Could you imagine if Football fans started complaining that they needed to make the balls heavier and lengthen the field because quarterbacks can throw too far and kickers are making field goals from too far away.

Every sport advances.  That's why we see records broken every year in just about every sport.

[Buckeyebowman]

Well said Rough! Yes equipment advances have been made but what's new about that? Take the "rollback" thinking far enough and we'll be playing with hickory shafts and Gutta Percha balls. What is the ideal?

Look at baseball. Guys are swinging maple bats for more bat speed. At least golf clubs don't shatter and send razor sharp shrapnel flying!

Hockey. Newly designed skates, fiberglass reinforced sticks, and better athletes. Look at film clips of historic players like Bobby Hull and Stan Mikita. They look like they're skating in slo-mo compared to modern players.

Football. We now have quarterbacks as large as linemen were 20-30 years ago. And, we have linemen who can run the 40 as fast as running backs did that long ago!

It's an ascending curve, and for those who don't think golfers are athletes I'd guess they haven't attended a pro tournament lately. We go to the WGC Bridgestone in Akron every year. Yes, there are outliers, but the vast majority of pro golfers look as if they don't have an ounce of body fat on them! They just look "different" than your average guy walking down the street.

Whatever the sport, as the paychecks have gone up, so has the dedication. Pro football players used to have part time jobs in the off season to supplement their income. With the salaries being paid nowadays, staying in shape year round is paramount. I remember an NFL player saying that if you wait until training camp to get in shape you won't be in the league very long! So it is with all sports.