Obama - Winner or Loser

[boogielicious]

3 hours ago, SnazzyJeff said:

Hey you allowed the thread and I'll post, that's how it works.

 

I was just asking that you look at the rest of the site. It is unusual for a first post on a golf forum to be on a non-golf subject.

[Papa Steve 55]

I was in the clubhouse having lunch after a round a couple weeks ago. We were watching the golf channel on a pretty big flat screen, there was also ESPN and a news channel on the other two large flat screen TV's. There were a  couple guys' complaining about the morning commute, all these people clogging the roads heading off to work or wherever else they wanted to go that day, gas under $2.00 and all. Another was pulling all this Obama hate on his IPhone and passing it around. Easy to find with the free Wi-Fi and uncensored internet available to everybody. General consensus for the right leaners was that the country had gone to hell. I didn't get it, I'm pretty sure if Romney had been elected, we all would have been doing the exact same thing. I wanted to ask how they thought their day would be any different if Obama was not president but decided to order another beer instead. I wanted to suggest to them they look up third world poverty on the internet then tell me how bad the US has become. Ask Donald for the date when America stopped being great.

[firstorlast]

I don't care what other countries think about him especially some ****ing Canucks

[Ernest Jones]

4 minutes ago, firstorlast said:

I don't care what other countries think about him especially some ****ing Canucks

Thank you for your input. In sure your countrymen are quite proud of you. 

[burtonda]

22 hours ago, SnazzyJeff said:

Hey you allowed the thread and I'll post, that's how it works.

 

He replied much more respectfully to you than you deserved. The TST forums are probably the most well-moderated, fair, and civil of all the discussion groups I've followed since diving into abyss of the "internet" with a Prodigy account in the 90's (late 80's?). I don't actively participate much here, but as a member/lurker since 2010 I can tell you that even TST members who don't share my views are respectful and produce (mostly) well thought out posts and rarely resort to 4chan/reddit-caliber nonsense.

And like Mr. Boogie alluded to, if you check out the golf topic discussions here I guarantee you will learn something. The guys that run this site know what they are talking about.

My apologies to the mods for feeding this troll as I would never reply to something like this outside your Grill Room. Keep up the good work.

Back on topic: I voted "winner" but I can understand many of the opposing viewpoints that have been posted.

[Ernest Jones]

On 3/26/2016 at 2:54 AM, burtonda said:

He replied much more respectfully to you than you deserved. The TST forums are probably the most well-moderated, fair, and civil of all the discussion groups I've followed since diving into abyss of the "internet" with a Prodigy account in the 90's (late 80's?). I don't actively participate much here, but as a member/lurker since 2010 I can tell you that even TST members who don't share my views are respectful and produce (mostly) well thought out posts and rarely resort to 4chan/reddit-caliber nonsense.

And like Mr. Boogie alluded to, if you check out the golf topic discussions here I guarantee you will learn something. The guys that run this site know what they are talking about.

My apologies to the mods for feeding this troll as I would never reply to something like this outside your Grill Room. Keep up the good work.

Back on topic: I voted "winner" but I can understand many of the opposing viewpoints that have been posted.

You should post more often, we could use a few more "grown-ups".

[acerimusdux]

On 3/24/2016 at 0:48 PM, Ernest Jones said:

Can you explain to me why? As a Canadian and outsider looking in, I don't understand.

I think part of it is just the increasing polarization of the country. It seems it's increasingly difficult for a president to even satisfy both the left and far-left, or both the right and far-right, never mind trying to bridge the gap between left and right. I think at least some of those who are unhappy with Obama actually believe he's not far enough left. 

And I think I've said before, while Obama's polling favorables don't look great, whoever replaces him will likely have an even worse favorable rating. With Clinton and Trump the leading candidates, that's now a safe bet.

But look also at the runners up in the nominating contests. According to statistical measures, based on voting record, Bernie Sanders is the most far-left guy in the US Senate. And on the other side, Ted Cruz is the 3rd-farthest to the right (using Keith Poole's "dw-nominate").

Fans of the brokered convention like to point to Abe Lincoln in 1860, who started the convention in 2nd place in the delegate count. Lincoln emerged as the nominee though, because he was the moderate who other factions could agree on to bring the party together. There will be no Abe Lincolns this year, at either convention. 

Anyway, I voted "good" though I think he could have been better. As Democratic presidents go, I'd say he's been better than Jimmy Carter, but not as good as Bill Clinton.

[BigUnit68]

Divider in chief. No matter what your party affiliation, he has no balls and appears weak. I want a president who at least has a set and doesn't bow down to other world leaders.

Next....

[rkim291968]

On 3/24/2016 at 9:48 AM, Ernest Jones said:

To all you guys that seem to think Obama is a disaster.

Can you explain to me why? As a Canadian and outsider looking in, I don't understand. Unemployment is down, the deficit is down, you have healthcare now, the stock market is up, gas prices are down, etc, etc......all with a congress that is apparently sworn to cock-block him at every turn regardless of the validity of any particular proposal.

Outside of the US, many are proclaiming him to be one of greatest US Presidents ever. I don't know enough to understand how those two points of view can co-exist. Can one of you show me where Obama has proven to be such a monumental a failure? Really curious, because all I've really heard to shore up the "Obama is a disaster" narrative has been redneck stupidity. I'm open to hearing from one of the "smart" Obama detractors.

I vote "yes" for many of what you listed about, including the health care.   The major disappointment I have with Obama is that during his presidency, Dems & Reps drifted even more apart.    He played to his party songs instead of being the uniting force, at times, sticking it the Reps.   IMO, this is the reason why so many Republicans hate everything about Obama.

[BigUnit68]

9 hours ago, rkim291968 said:

I vote "yes" for many of what you listed about, including the health care.   The major disappointment I have with Obama is that during his presidency, Dems & Reps drifted even more apart.    He played to his party songs instead of being the uniting force, at times, sticking it the Reps.   IMO, this is the reason why so many Republicans hate everything about Obama.

You're right....except the health care part. ACA is a disaster quit letting the liberal media tell you differently.

[k-troop]

On 3/24/2016 at 5:28 PM, boogielicious said:

I don't want our troops permanently engaged in war, which he has moved toward. I want our allies to pony up for a change, which is happening. So I see that as a positive.

Our level of "permanent engagement" is back down to historical cold war levels, more or less.  During the 2007-2008 surge we had about 250k Soldiers, Marines, Sailors, and Airmen deployed inside combat zones.  Today that number is under 50k.  We are doing a lot more limited scale contingency missions, which is exactly what we've done all over the globe since Korea. 

It might look like we're more engaged for a couple of reasons.  One, our military is smaller.  Two, we've reduced permanent stationing in Europe and Korea and are now "deploying" brigades to those locations on a rotational basis (but of course, they're not actually fighting).

Obama over-relies on special forces.  Other than that, I think his employment of the military has been about as good as it could be.

On 3/24/2016 at 5:59 PM, Wally Fairway said:

b) his words "ISIS is the junior varsity", and we treated them as such and look where we are today
c) pulling troops out of Iraq & Afghanistan too early and with year long + notice, so the Taliban, al Queda (and others) could just wait for the US military to leave

The Iraq withdrawal plan was negotiated during the Bush administration while Petraeus was commander.  Obama's team spent all of 2009 leaning on the withdrawal timeline trying to get the Iraqi Government to take responsibility for building their country.  They spent all of 2010-2011 trying to negotiate a continued US presence.  Ultimately the Iraqi Government refused to grant immunity to US troops, so we had to pull out.  The withdrawal "timeline" we ultimately followed was inherited by Obama.  It's that simple.

As for Afghanistan...when Obama took the oath we had about 40k troops in Afghanistan.  Two years later we had over 100k and Petraeus was in command.  What a pu$$y.

On 3/25/2016 at 8:05 PM, newtogolf said:

Terrorism is on the rise while Obama refuses to even acknowledge ISIS.  Our relations with North Korea, Israel and Russia are more strained than they have been in a few decades.  The Middle East is still a disaster (partially due to GW) 

North Korea is a crackpot.  It's doing what it has always done.

Israel is a baffling issue from a security perspective.  Our alliance with Israel makes us a target, and they break promises constantly.  Yet we have continued to provide unconditional military support for Israel from Ike to W.  Why?  No ally in history has ever unconditionally supported our military policies.  UK comes close, but even there it's not unconditional.

Russia flexed.  Then the price of oil dropped to $35/bbl and all of the lead went out of their pencil.  What's Russia doing right now in Syria?  Oh yeah, complete withdrawal.

And let's talk about IS.  The IS is failing.  Their Soldiers are defecting.  They're hemorrhaging territory.  The dreams of a caliphate state are crumbling.

Terrorism is still a problem, and domestic terrorism is now a problem more than ever.  Unfortunately, so long as we have civil liberties and secure iPhones there's simply nothing any President can do to completely stamp out the Boston Marathon bombers and the Farooks.

On 3/29/2016 at 1:28 PM, acerimusdux said:

I think part of it is just the increasing polarization of the country.

I agree with this.  My biggest complaint with Obama is he was supposed to be the great unifier, but we're farther apart than ever.  I don't think it's his fault personally.  However, more Obama (or Clinton, or Cruz) isn't going to fix this problem.

On 3/30/2016 at 6:48 AM, BigUnit68 said:

Divider in chief. No matter what your party affiliation, he has no balls and appears weak. I want a president who at least has a set and doesn't bow down to other world leaders.

Who has he bowed to?  He hiccuped on the Syrian chemical weapons "red line."  He bluffed, and he was called.  Russia/Ukraine I think was a more calculated approach, but how did that turn out?  We didn't deploy any troops.  Guess what?  Russia's economy is collapsing.  They're retreating in Syria.  They haven't encroached any further than Sevastopol (which was Russian territory for centuries until they annexed it with the Ukraine during the Soviet period because it just made administrative sense to do so). 

 

What do I think?

ACA is not a good fix.  Healthcare reform was/is necessary, and universal healthcare is a noble goal for the world's most powerful and wealthiest country.  But trying to allow the market to regulate a mandatory-consumption product is absurd.  Kudos for getting anything at all passed, but he should've had the balls to just ram the real reforms through in 2009-2010.

Foreign Policy has actually been quite good.  No new wars (at least none with US Soldiers on the ground).  ISIS was created in Anbar Provence, Iraq in 2006.  That's not Obama's fault.  The drone program has been pretty successful if you like surgically eliminating terrorists at minimal economic and political cost.  We didn't let our balls override our brains with Russia or Syria, and both of those situations are turning in our favor.  Domestic threats are up.  That's an ideology thing.  It would be hard to say Obama's strategy has been, on the whole, hardening extremist Islamic ideology against us (any more than it would have been).  My guess is if we had two Divisions in Iraq/Syria right now we'd be getting a lot more San Bernadinos.

You can't pin any tax, spending, or budget issues directly on Obama.  I also think he made a good faith effort to negotiate with Republicans to resolve the tax/budget differences.  Anyone remember his grand bargain with Boehner that the Tea-partiers tubed?  I don't think you can say Obama didn't try to at least do something.

[Slice of Life]

Neither. 

 

He's not as bad as die-hard Conservatives make him out to be, and he's not the Messiah that die-hard Liberals make him out to be. 

I still have him ranked well above Bush (W)...but at the end of the day, 50 years from now I don't think he'll be talked about much, positive or negative. 

[rkim291968]

1 hour ago, Slice of Life said:

I still have him ranked well above Bush (W)...but at the end of the day, 50 years from now I don't think he'll be talked about much, positive or negative. 

 

In 50 years, I suspect that he will be considered one of the great presidents.  Americans forget negative things rather quickly, and 50 years is a long time.    He has done enough in comparison to recent presidents to distinguish himself as far as legacy items are concerned.  Among things he will be cited/credited for: 1st black president, Novel prize winner, introduction of ACA, getting US out of recession, and a few others.   But I won't be around to see it.  I will be 104 years old then and likely in 6 feet under.  

3 hours ago, BigUnit68 said:

You're right....except the health care part. ACA is a disaster quit letting the liberal media tell you differently.

I am benefiting from ACA.   Without it, our premium would have been a lot more. 

[k-troop]

23 minutes ago, rkim291968 said:

Among things he will be cited/credited for:  Nobel prize winner

Ironically, his legacy will be greatly bolstered by this fact, although all he did to "win" it was get elected.

Quote

Nominations for the 2009 Nobel Peace Prize closed just 11 days after Obama took office

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_Nobel_Peace_Prize

[rkim291968]

1 minute ago, k-troop said:

Ironically, his legacy will be greatly bolstered by this fact, although all he did to "win" it was get elected.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_Nobel_Peace_Prize

That was one of the weirdest Nobel Prize wins.   He was no way near deserving it.  

[boogielicious]

22 hours ago, rkim291968 said:

That was one of the weirdest Nobel Prize wins.   He was no way near deserving it.  

He did not ask for it either.

[14ledo81]

1 hour ago, boogielicious said:

He did not ask for it either.

Do any of them?

[Dave2512]

On ‎4‎/‎1‎/‎2016 at 11:55 AM, rkim291968 said:

I am benefiting from ACA.   Without it, our premium would have been a lot more. 

I can't say I've benefited from but my premiums and coverage are similar to what I've had for the past 10 years. I had a nearly identical plan with the same carrier years ago that was $12 a month more than I pay now.